NRL needs a second division with promotion and relegation

I just googled NRL second division? and read very interesting article dating back to 2009. I could not agree more. It's farcical a team finishing bottom of the NRL dust off like nothing happened and start a new season afresh in the same league. As you say there are many great league teams floundering around playing in front of small crowds, North Sydney, Wentworthville, Newtown, strong Q Cup teams, and potentially great regional teams like Riverina, Central West etc which would invigorate those areas like Bathurst Lithgow etc Football. AFL. Union are all making in roads and League although it comes up with amazing games and finals every year is becoming too insular and ridiculous that a NRL player not quite up to top standard has the choice of playing in front of 20 people in park football or going overseas. It would be a sight to behold to see those great regional stadiums come to life, put $ into the local communities and much needed life into the NRL, as you rightfully say promotion and relegation. I would say two up two down NB The NRL seriously needs a good website, when compared to BBC Sport, ESPN and Euro sites is hopeless seems to be all betting

will Manly and Canberra be forced to field NSW Cup sides next year after the new ruling that they have to play in the NSW.. They should never have let them turn their back on the NSW comp in the first place..the NSWRL have to show some nouse on this matter...

LT80 good response - I think that's fair enough that you are pretty much looking at the geography along a thin wedge from Canberra to the Illawarra and to the Sunshine Coast (for argument's sake) - all of which is reasonably well connected. In a world of increasing airfares, teams from Perth, Adelaide and Darwin (in a 2nd divvie) would certainly stretch finances. One positive about a 2nd division, and I'll use the VFA as an example, is that once it's there, it's relatively easy to bring in growing clubs from growing areas (via the 2nd div). Obviously, your start up costs are much lower, and the step up from dominating an outer-surbuban league to entering the 2nd division is not insurmountable (all things being equal). I can recall that this process pretty much sustained the VFA in its last decade or two, bringing in new teams from growing areas, and kept it fresh and vibrant while its bigger cousin went through a phase of stagnation as it struggled with its 11 inner city teams (before biting the bullet on some hard decisions).

Mike, I think TT was referring to the subbies (sub-districts) comp. Dunning plays for Eastwood in the semi-pro Shute Shield.

Matt Dunning a pin up boy? Thems some extra large pins!!!!

Michael C, You've hit the nail right on the head. "Personally I love P&R systems --- where appropriate".

P&R can happen but League need major reforms for it to happen Fix up and streemline administration so we don't get locked into National, State or Local Mentality. There should be nothing to stop 3rd teir comp containing teams across state boaders. Setup a planed structure so that each comp is fed by two lower comps eg NRL - NSW & QLD state comps, NSW - Metro and country leagues etc. Then have P&R working in the lower leagues first, where money is less of an issue. Once that has been working for a few years then have P&R to NRL, wooden spooner relegated and winner of playoff between NSW & QLD cups. Knockers of P&R are right saying that it would be disatouris if brought in straght up. A lot of changes needs to take place first in the culture of the game, but I do believe that it could be possible to have in the long term.

Pippinu - and in Melbourne we still have a P&R in the VAFA (A,B,C,D1..4) - 7 divisions. (note St.Bedes Mentone Tigers won the C grade GF in 2006, the B grade in 2007 and the A grade in 2008 - - - simply astounding that, but, the ultimate proof of the competitiveness of an Amateur P&R system - - - even in a free flowing game like Aust Footy). Personally I love P&R systems - - - where appropriate.

tt thanks for that - it gives me the perfect segue into mentioning that it's far easier to have P&R in local quasi-amateur comps, predominantly because of the lower cost structure (and this helps explain why the VFA was able to keep it going for 30 years). But once you look beyond the local region, and I think you have already touched on this in an earlier post, it starts to look impractical that you can have, say, Perth in a a 2nd division playing, say, Central Coast - the economics just can't support it.

Correct, True, but unfortunately they're losing their No1 pin-up boy, Matt Dunning, so it won't be the same.

Pip there is a P & R system within Sydney suburban rugby (i.e. the amateur comp).

Dogs Of war, I note your opening response/reply holds the same position as mine. The AFL wants teams in Gold Coast & Western Sydney, but have 3-4 Melbourne clubs struggling financially. The 'economies of scale' don't make sense. Similarly, the NRL would like to expand into 3-4 other areas, while carrying perhaps as many as 5-6 clubs on the borderline financially. Again, the 'economies of scale' don't make sense. It's not only about having sufficient playing talent. It's also about sustainability, especially for individual clubs. I thought Mushi's very first reply to this post highlighted the structural problems with P & R., while Pipinu gave a good account of what has happened historically with Victorian/Australian football.

Whilst I can't say I agree with the practicality of your idea, it's good to see fans of the game thinking outside the box as the NRL moves forward. This particular line of thought is flawed in my opinion, for many of the reasons listed above, including financial sustainability in no small part. We all know this system works well in English Football, but we aren't exactly comparing apples for apples....At least you are having a crack at thinking of ways to improve things, more than I can say for many at the NRL!

My last post sounded a bit callous, which was not my intention. Its just that from Dublin, there are problems that loom larger than Fiji. For example, there are 36 nations in the Rugby European Nations Cup. The top two teams in first division are Russia and Georgia – who fought a war last year, leaving 200,000+ people homeless. Each blames the other, and they may go at it again. Organising a tournament under these circumstances is not easy. Fortunately Croatia and Serbia are in different divisions, and so are Azerbaijan and Armenia, but this could change. Then there is Asia with thirteen full members of the IRB, two of whom are China and Taiwan… Fiji does looks rather mild compared to these.

I think IRB made the decision to hold the Pacific Nations Cup in Fiji as part of long term development plans for Rugby in the Pacific Rim. Dublin would surely have consulted with Japan, Tonga and Samoa before making the final announcement - no point in awarding it to Fiji if the other Pacific Rim nations had objections. But I wouldn't be surprised if the genesis of the idea was immediately after RWC2007 - Fiji had just become the first Pacific Nation to reach the quarter finals of the World Cup. It created quite a stir. If the decision was made in late 2007 to look at holding the PNC in Fiji, 2009 is the earliest they could have done it . The Commonwealth doesn't have as much relevance in Dublin, unlike say the ICC where just about every test cricket nation is also a member of the Commonwealth.

Sheek although Sydney is saturated I am not sure.about not going to 18. Central Queensland , a second side in NZ , Perth and perhaps with time papua/New Guinea not to forget Central Coast. This does not mean a couple of Sydney teams will not be in trouble. rugby League definitely perceives rightly or wrongly definite prospects in Oceania. This is a possible explanation for the extraordinary decision by the IRB to locate the Pacific nations cup in Fiji at atime when most Commonwealth countries have or are entertaining cultural restrictions.

Sheek..NRL has way more room to move than AFL does. AFL only has risky areas left to conquer now, while the NRL still has prime sites to expand to. Don't get me wrong, like the AFL, the NRL has the fact that it evolved out of the NSWRL, and too many Sydney teams exist, but as it moves on, survival of the fitness will see that imbalance corrected (hopefully starting with Cronulla).

Yep, It's a stupid suggestion, with all due respect. Most national sports in Australia, if you look closely, already operate at near 'maximum capacity'. Even the AFL. If the NRL want teams in Perth & Adelaide, they will have to cull/transfer teams from elsewhere. For all its talk of expansion, the NRL doesn't have much room in which to move.

Newtown back in the comp... And with the opportunity to claw back up to 1st division! That would be something to see. Its a pity many old-timers haven't lived to see it, but they always believed it would happen. Would have been wonderful if it happened in 2008 - 100 years after Newtown first established. However, I fear its not going to happen ever.