Questions on Buckley's Man Management ability [Part 2]

interesting article NUFC, especially in relation to the post by RedB directly above yours. It would seem that the MLS and the people that run its clubs are now beginning to see the light, contracting the early theoretical basis that RedB's post implies and that has led to the FFA making rash decisions such as banning of Eureka flag, implementing of HEM and the hiring of anti-terrorist firm Hatamoto. Will they also realise there mistake before it becomes to late and 'active support' stagnates, and accordingly active interest in the A-League? I doubt it...

***** Interesting article regarding the MLS and active fans just popped up on the MVFC Forum, is worth a read as a talking point http://pitchinvasion.net/blog/2009/07/08/american-soccer-a-little-bit-dangerous/ Interesting

It's called risk management. The FFA can't afford to allow 'active' fans to get out of control. They want a family atmosphere not a bunch of young adolescents venting their spleen. At least that is my perception. Redb

^^^ Generally agree, football wise there have been some great signings, by Perth particularly and obviously Gold Coast too. Many people have said that the new teams came in a year too late. That is probably right but all things considered it was probably the right decision because Gold Coast Utd replaced Galaxy with Clive Palmer coming in and the NQ club gets its ownership together, pity about the name, kit, logo etc though Hopefully things are better with new stadium and rejuvenated, the views should be much better, and it will be fantastic to be in a rectangular stadium finally Not to mention the new tops, and the better colour that will come from having a bit of variation on the whole "Home team vs White away team" every week For me season 1 was more sociable, there were a few times when I was on the wing obviously, but if I turned up with my mate we could simply walk into the OP terrace no probs, meet up with his mate etc, that is the benefit of a genuine terrace, keeps it all more sociable. NOt sure what some of the more Platinum and Corporate supporters think though, I'd imagine many of them would enjoy the better facilities at Docklands more. Good thing there though is that with new OP being a World Class stadium, facilities would be good for them too, so it sounds like the new OP should be a win for everyone, will be much better to be in a mostly packed stadium which is always much more electric. Let's hope there is a real buzz and we can put issues behind us and have a fresh start, need to get the seating strucutre right, will be mostly allocated seating obviously given it generally quite fully subscribed, but if they position the GA areas in the right place we should hopefully get the mix right which enables it to be flexible and sociable

lets hope. i do have to admit season 5 is looking pretty good so far. perth, sydney and gold coast are what im really interested in seeing.

season 4 was boring allround. the highlights were Adelaide beating rivaldo, other than that there wasnt much interesting on the domestic football front. it seemed to me that everyone was waiting for this season - more clubs, different players - and last season was stop gap until the real season started. hll even the ffa ran the same adverts as season 3!

i also enjoyed season 1 more than 4. its fantastic we won because when we did we all went mental but season one was far more sociable. you could walk around, sing if you want, sit down and watch the game if you want. it was just great times. season 2 was obviously the best and the one that made me a dedicated supporter, i just hope the new stadium will bring the spice back to mvfc games. btw im really impressed with everybodies contribution to this article and i applaud NUFCMVFC for raising this debate

Gret post Allen Generally I can undertand why you don't want splinter groups willy nilly, but at the same time as it is said the demographics of each city is different (different "peg"), so this is where the whole HEM thing falls down, because a one size fits all system simply doesen't suit. People need to remember the South End was originally a splinter group at the start of season 2 of the North End, and it has since grown quite substantially. It needed to happen to allow the more "Barmy Army" style support its won space and the European/continental perspective more space. There would have been much tension otherwise if they were lumped. Which sounds like it was the case with the Cove and SCC which then leads to frustration and a situation that is as 'difficult to manage' as one of the notion of 'splinter groups' appearing everywhere I can see why people moved to level 3, view much better and you weren't squashed in the same way but obviously there is a good theory that the best place for active fans is right behind the goals so you can see why from an artistic sense they were wanted there. That said, the steeper gradient of the new stadium should ensure there is a much better view for active supporters than on level 1 Etihad at present As it stands there, there is a bit of over and mis-regulation that is stifling the forces that allowed everything to grow in the first place. In Melbourne people liked to alternate between the ends and talk to friends in both ends, but that can't be done now where you are somewhat compelled to choose, it isn't as socially enjoyable as it was. I have to admit I enjoyed season 1 more than season 4 when we won the GF

@ melbvictory87, actually, level 3 is good for active support for many reasons, not least that it allows active fans to be able to see the game. It is not coincidence that most groups overseas with the option of elevated viewing use it (eg; Curva Sud in Milan). There are also other 'logistical' reasons why L3 would be a better alternative.

very very true or they say something like it was more fun a few years ago. i think the one thing we all agree upon is that level 3 is not suitable if you are an active supporter, you want to be an active supporter or you are taking first timers. level 3 is great if your taking your family for a relaxed evening. if your going with mates to soak up the atmosphere and have a great time you should be able to sit on level 1 without any hassles just like we used to be when we were flourishing. its already been mentioned that the ffa should seriously read some of this feedback, i know they are wonderful and have done an unimaginable magnificent job in catering for football lovers in australia, but they are still in their infancy and need to take onboard our feedback.

I would cheer this post if possible. Very reasoned and fair points.

Good debate here folks, and I would hope that the heads at the FFA find the time to analyise the comments in between their marketing reports, graphs and pie charts! The Home End Membership in Melbourne has been a disaster for my group of MV followers. To put ito into a micro level perspective, we have a group of about 5 die hard followers who are members and go to every game, but for every game our group often swells up with a few extra casual fans from between 8 upto 20 for the semi/grand final last year. We looked into getting tickets in the supporter areas this year but its just too hard to coordinate. Basically with a ticketed home end we are excluded from active support due to the complexety of coordinating such a large group of members and tickets. Now we are generally forced upto the drab level 3 while the bottom teir (and both supporter ends) of the stadium remain half empty. The real success of Melbourne Victory off the field was built in seasons 1 and 2 when new fans were able to organically move around the stadium and find the area of the crowd that suited them and their idea of a football supporting experience. This was especially the case at olympic park where the terraces allowed complete freedom of movement. FFA is doing a great job accross the board but they need to work more constructively on the supporter issues, realising that each city has a different shaped peg, that will not fit through the one FFA one size fits all hole. There are several undesirable supporter issues (i.e. excessive use of flares, swearing and fan segregation) that FFA has rightly clamped down on and should continue to, but at the same time they need to respect the individual supporter groups who in my opinion are one of the biggest (if not the the biggest) asset the has. Look at what the J league has acheived by fostering these groups. The thing that gets me the most is when casual fans on level 3 who have not been to game for three years ask 'what happened to the cheer squads they used to be so much louder?'

"After all it’s only a game…" ~ Koala Bear @ KB, this point is where your opinion and that of the 'whingers' splinters and is why you will never be able to fully comprehend why the active supporters in Melbourne, and on a smaller scale in Adelaide and Sydney, will defend there right to support their team how they think best to the bitter end. Football is more to them than 'just a game' to be viewed and discussed accomponied by a pint, that is where the line in the sand is drawn between the casual observer and the most passionate football supporters (the most passionate need not be 'active' either, by the way).

In regards to the teams representing at the Asian Champions League that is because of an AFC ruling not the FFA. The AFC need to know which teams you will be sending by a certian date and the A league doesn't finish before that date as our comp doesn't line up with most of the other asisan countries calander wise. The FFA lobbied for an extension in time from the AFC but they were denied. I dont see a problem with allowing fans to sit where they want to because that goes both ways. The fans that dont want to jump up and down and scream can move to the quiet area and those that want more active support can go to the rowdy end. Everyone benefits and the atmosphere improves. The game is national though and if theres bad behavior in Melbourne it hurts Sydney and Brisbane. To be honest I don't really mind fn the FFA don't cater for the active european style of support. I am sure by not doing so they will hurt the attendances of Melbourne Victory in the short term but I enjoy going to Rugby league and Cricket and theres little banners or singing. I would prefer if it was amore barmy army style support like the guys that used to support the socceros back in the early 90's... whatever that supporter group was called (The Flouros)

NUFCMVFC: that sort of thing doesnt happen as much in melbourne though. if i have realized anything is that sydney media seems far more biased than melbourne. generally the age does a pretty good job. eitherway, i wish their was a way that our officials will listen to the fans because it is seriously frustrating when they make choices based on afl and nrl models which completely do no suit. i also forgot to add my other biggest grievance with the ffa and that is the absolutely boneheaded decision to let our teams play in the asian champions league more than 1 year after the season finished. what on earth was the point of sending newcastle jets to represent the continent when they finished last???? adelaide finished second last year and they made it to the gf, imagine how much more succesful we would be if we sent in our strong teams when they actually are strong. seriously, as much as i love the ffa and everything they have done for football development, their handling of the A-league is bizarre. finally NUFCMVFC: just to add to what you said before, my friends said the same thing that they thought level 3 was just "ok" and he doesnt know if he'll come back "yeah i dont know, maybe later". how different things were 2 years ago. if anybody knows how i can make these grievances known would be very helpful, the ffa does need some help to get things right

One thing I forgot, there was a little bit of attention to be fair, Scott McIntyre discussed the issue on one of his National Radio programs with Attila Moshinyi, but generally one gets the impression the football media seem to be worried about giving rise to anything hostile media forces can jump on, so they tend not to cover issues that need covering, but in this leads to festering tensions You only have to look at all the "Socceroos are boring", "Pim Verbeek is holding the game back" and "Tim Cahill has shamed Soccer" type things to see why, but football ends up getting compromised

melbvictory87, I generally have to say I agree with you. With season 2, with the matches being rather open, it enabled fluidity and good organic growth. One issue for god season 2 crowds can perhaps be attributed to the World Cup qualifcation etc, but one thing that has made football popular in the first place is sense of community etc. Just have to look at Germany, best atmosphere and highest average attendance in Europe with it open to youth in a way the EPL isn't The season 3 issues with TD adn the club etc didn't help, but they ended up being resolved once all the crap stopped. Funny how we moved from drums being banned because they encourage tribal behaviour to having the club hiring drummers. Anyway, the issues have stemmed from the season 3 review. They brought in over-regulation, you used to have people wtih friends in both ends who could move between them, they can't do that now and it undermines community that underpins the club (active segment). It is an undermining factor, as well as fall out, where you have displaced active fans chanting on the concourse behind the wings, behind passive fans who like the atmosphere but don't want to be THAT close to language. Causes needless tensions between the two segments. As you said, by trying to overbearingly clamp the active fans in order to "protect" the passive fans, they have actually facilitated the very scenario they are wanting to avoid You only ahve to read the response in the Liam Pender article, the psychology of the Sydney fans is one that they are referred to as threatening violence which is not in anyone's interests - particularly fans - but that is what happens when you lock people out of the process, you can see how the Perth fan feels marginalised, obviously the whole 10 year history thing was under O'Neill and Carroll but Buckely's quoted comment wasn't well considered unfortunately and you can see the impact it had on the Perth fan Regarding ACL, I was able to bring a mate who in turn was able to bring other generalist sports fans, so that is 4-5 people extra. I could not do that in season4, That is less people going to games. My mate said the season 2 GF in the NT was the beste sporting experience of his life. Spent the season4 GF up on level 3 - the only game he went to that season after attending several in seasons past - and said it was OK but not as good as last time. In this sense they have encouraged stagnant growth and it is one of many contributing factors IMO to falling attendances ( as well as boredom with 8 teams and away teams all in white etc) And what is this all for? It is because of mispeceptions and hysterical fear, You are right in second post,someone has mentioned about it being Australia, A League/Football isn't an Australia-centric sport like AFL or Rugby League, there is an international dimension to it, the local and international side need to be balanced out, and they need to think more deeply about active fans because when we play overseas clubs/countries thanks to higher frequency that comes with the ACL, the fans who come have the same sporting cultural perspective as active fans and there is a NEED to learn how to deal with this I have tried to siphon the man management aspect from the other element because in other areas they are doing well, eg more sponsors than before, but they are not above constructive criticism, indeed we (football) won't reach our potential without it, and the truth is there have been a lot of problems I personally don't think they have addressed the issues causing problems with the pre 2008/2009 security review (even made it worse in some respects) and I also personally don't think they approached it from the right perspective, I guess we'll hear about that more later as I am in the process of trying to advocate/facilitate an alternative in the interests of constructive debate and finding solutions. I saw some very alarming things last season If people read the second point J League mission statement http://www.j-league.or.jp/eng/mission/ "To foster the development of Japan's sporting culture, to assist in the healthy mental and physical growth of Japanese people." Similarly, A League active fans see the A League as having a similar function, in that through the A League they facilitate an appropriated form of footballs international culture in Australian sporting mainstream which is not unreasonable - just look at J League, but that is being obstructed rather than facilitate, it's the complete opposite in Japan. J League is supposed to be a model the A League is supposed to be aspiring to remember The issue with the A League is that it has become over and mis-regulated, we ca't afford the stagnation causing fallout from that

I wonder why I keep getting "awaiting moderation" on my posts???

i dont understand what ffa is afraid of, fan tribalism? this is what basicly makes football matches unmissable. this is a sport which even i can admit at times can be boring to watch, we know that it cant compete with goalmouth action with other games. yes it is a different sport and it is more technical than others. but the fact is not other sport in this land can compete with us in terms of atmosphere, yes no other sport. no other game do people goto to constantly sing and cheer for every single minute and celebrate wildly when it all comes together. now that it is being restrained by the very people that are meant to make it work we are seeing the ramifications. why do they the economic crisis, bad weather and apparent boredom of seeing each team play each other so many times??? did that ever stop people from making their way to the footy, NO!!!! but do people realize this, NO!! because they will listen to marketting students with little knowledge of this game and tell us how to conduct our sport. this sport needs to be conducted the way in which every other nation does so and that is by allowing the fans to show their colours of support. in fact i was so incensed with the mindless idea of restricing people out of blue and white brigade that me and my friends did not bother going to more than 2 games in season 3. the 2 we went to we sat on level 3 and were hardly entertained. makes me think back to the good old days in 2007 when i would leave each game barely able to wait til the next one was on. now, i leave each game wondering if more people could just give it a chance next week and whether all the doubters are right and that the a-league is just a fad. sad but true, even for some1 like me who has played and loved the game his whole life

NUFCMVFC: i am not bashing the ffa for i think they are brilliant. the advances we have made make me feel like this country will one day be a power. that aside i need to talk about their fan treatment. if you have attended each season of mvfc you will know what i mean. season 2 created an unimaginably entertaining atmosphere. it wasn't a constrained one, or one of hesitancy with the fear that this will revert back to its old ways. no, it was an atmosphere of football, of singing your team to victory and soaking up every minute of action with the entertainment of the crowd. like i said, i took that many first timers and hardcore afl only fans to the games and they absolutely loved it. now lets talk about the changes made. by restricting the fan culture i can tell you many people were put off and even i dont enjoy it as much as i used to. why am i not able to take more first timers and sit with them in the northern terrace so they can embrace what football culture is like, i dont know. put it this way, im not sure if football will ever rival afl for afl is honestly a very entertaining game to watch. football is more fun to play and the reason why its popularity spreads like wildfire is because the matchdays create such an electric atmosphere that you cant help but want to come back. now that this atmosphere has been slowly strangled, afl loving neutrals dont have the chance to really embrace why we all love the game so much and soak up the atmosphere. they now have to sit in the most dullest of places that is level 3. regardless of how we started in season 3 we still won in season 4, how can you explain our falling attendances, furthermore, how can you explain mvfc v sydney in s.2 reaching 50k and s.4 reaching 32k and how can you explain a semifinal attendance of 10k less than it was in s.2. the blue and white brigade seriously makes melbourne victory what it is, now that they have restrained the neutrals from sitting and soakling up the fun you can see the consequences. this is not meant to be a mindless stab at the ffa, this is honestly the reason why i feel we are stagnating. i just hope the new rectangular stadium will be different and allow us to have a truly football, NOT afl, NOT rugby league, NOT cricket atmosphere.