New Wallabies Rugby Union coach Robbie Deans with Wallabies captain Stirling Mortlock. AAP Image/Dean Lewins
The chief executive of the ARU, John O’Neill, has responded to questions from The Roar, generated by dozens of contributions from readers, with a detailed and positive review of where rugby is at in Australia and around the world.
His predictions for where rugby will be in ten years time are bullish.
He is confident, for instance, that in October the IOC will vote rugby, by way of the Sevens, back into the Olympic Games, after a gap of over 80 years and that the code will be second only to football in its international presence, while being strong domestically in Australia.
A driver of this strength will be a ‘major integration’ with the Asia/Pacific region, with additional Super Rugby teams, including at least one side and possibly more from Japan.
This is the sort of vision that The Roar readers were looking to be expressed from the general tone of the questions that they put forward for O’Neill to answer.
There will be, or should be, a vigorous discussion from readers about O’Neill’s answer to the more local issues of what the ARU can do to stimulate rugby at the local level, with more corporate connections and more resources put into the western suburbs of Sydney.
The input on these issues will be read by the ARU, which should encourage a vigorous discussion on what has been done, so far.
We were taken with the interesting comment that the television commentators were invited to a briefing on the laws of rugby. The implication is that this invitation was not accepted.
Judging by the misinformation that often comes from the television commentary, there is a need for the invitation to be accepted next year when it is offered.
This small matter does illustrate, however, that all the members of the rugby community – the commentators, the journalists, the players, the coaches, the officials and the supporters – have a role to play in growing the game.
For readers of The Roar that role right now is to subject the O’Neill dossier to the searching and informed discussion it deserves.
EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH JOHN O’NEILL
These questions were posed by The Roar readers on this article.
How can rugby parlay its unique strengths on a global level so the Wallabies can benefit from greater support and greater access to superior young athletes?
“The Australian market is inherently different to those of our major Rugby-playing competitors around the world. There are four football codes in this country competing for spectators, broadcasting airtime, sponsorship and playing talent.
For the Wallabies, and Australian Rugby in general, to benefit from a great strength of our game – its genuine international appeal and our own place near the top of the world standings – we need to expand our domestic footprint.
By creating more mass presence for rugby at the upper levels of the game, we enhance its profile and popularity and therefore the ability to leverage those key components of support and revenue.
And it is not only about more teams in Super Rugby. It is about a greater presence for our season: an expanded Super Rugby competition that extends through to August, rather than ending in May.
It is about a more seamless approach to the season rather than a series of chunks carved out of the year as rugby moves in then out of the limelight.
If we have a greater presence, there will be more opportunities for players, and therefore a more enticing career path on offer to younger athletes when the time comes for them to decide on a sport of preference.
The Strategic Imperatives set down by ARU in early 2008 recognised the need for a greater domestic presence.
They also indicated the need for us to tap into bigger commercial markets and we have started along that path with a Bledisloe Cup match in Hong Kong last year and another in Tokyo later this year.”
What has been done to get corporate connections to be more involved at a local level?
Australian Rugby has always encouraged its partners to be connected with the game at various levels. ARU programs conducted through Community Rugby – EdRugby, Walla Rugby and various other development initiatives – provide opportunities for our partners to support.
The ARU also provides extensive grants to the NSW and Queensland Rugby Unions for Premier Rugby clubs, while also supporting other affiliated unions.
This financial assistance allows the clubs more scope when deciding how to expend their own sponsorship revenue. It is equally worthy of mention that Wallabies coach Robbie Deans has led a back-to-the-clubs approach with national squad players over the past two seasons.
This can only assist clubs in their own pursuit of on field success and off-field support via gate takings and sponsorship.”
What has been done to put more resources into the western suburbs of Sydney, the heartland for most of the major Australian sports? And what has been done to make rugby a more classless game in Australia?
“We have spoken to the Parramatta club in recent times about some of the challenges facing them and we will be attempting to help them find solutions into the future.
Make no mistake: ARU wants a strong presence in the western suburbs of Sydney. We were delighted to support the young men from Prairiewood High School when they campaigned earlier this year as the sole Australian representative at the World Youth Tournament in Japan.
Their coach Jarrod Hodges, who is also coaching at the Penrith club, is a wonderful resource for our game and deserves special mention for his contribution.
Significantly, ARU and NSW Rugby Union have this year combined forces on the Community Rugby front, and there is no doubt we will be looking to improve our presence and impact in the west. Parramatta, West Harbour and Eastwood, in Sydney’s north-west, have produced a galaxy of Wallabies in the past 20 years.
The interest in the west has also been underlined by the Expression of Interest lodged by western Sydney to be part of the 15th Super Rugby team selection process.
As for rugby becoming a more classless game, I think the days of our code being seen as a leather patches brigade are long gone.
The number of players in our ranks these days who come from what would have once been described as “non-traditional” rugby backgrounds puts that myth to rest.”
What is being done to demystify rugby for television viewers and spectators alike?
“Understanding the game and a referee’s interpretations of the laws is a problem borne from the fact that Rugby is a complex sport. We have competitive scrums, we have breakdowns and lineouts, and a sense of the unexpected that the other codes do not possess. In one way it adds to the beauty of rugby, in another it causes confusion because of the number of laws that can come into play.
We did make attempts earlier this year to assist viewers by inviting commentators to take part in a thorough laws briefing. We will do the same next season because commentary teams have an important role to play in the education of television viewers.”
Are you happy with the proposed changes to the laws of Rugby, the modified ELVs, and are there law reforms that will come after the 2011 Rugby World Cup?
“ARU spent a great deal of time preparing submissions to the IRB on law changes earlier this year, and with our SANZAR partners we gave the IRB full support in terms of trialling ELVs.
Were we satisfied with where the ELVs debate ended?
Put it this way, we were enormously disappointed that Northern Hemisphere nations refused to trial certain Experimental Law Variations, despite previous guarantees they gave to the IRB. You cannot make valued judgments without trialling.
As for any reforms after the next Rugby World Cup, we will have to wait and see.”
What is the future of Super Rugby?
“There will be expansion in 2011 with an additional team being added to take the competition to 15 sides. It should not be overlooked, however, that Super Rugby will also be revamped from a format perspective. The 15 teams from 2011 will be split into three conferences – the Australian Conference, the New Zealand Conference and the South African Conference. Each conference will house five teams each.
Those five teams will play each other on a home and away basis, giving them eight “local derbies” per season. They will also play four of the five teams in the other two conferences, either home or away.
Those extra eight matches give each team 16 games a season. With two byes and then an extended six-team final series over three weeks, the 2011 Super Rugby season will run to 21 weeks in total. That is an additional five weeks compared to the 2009 Super Rugby season.
The number of matches overall also increases from 94 to 125. The number of games in Australia increases from 26 to 40.
These are significant numbers.
SANZAR, of course, is in the process of identifying contenders for and then selecting the 15th team to be added to Super Rugby in 2011.
However, expansion will not end there.
There is scope for further growth of the competition in the future. These are exciting times for our game. Super Rugby expansion is again in keeping with ARU’s Strategic Imperatives, which also touch on the need to bring private investment into the game.
People refer to our “sudden” desire to look for private equity in our teams as Super Rugby moves forward.
The need to encourage but also carefully control private equity in the game was recognized when our Strategic Imperatives were formulated 18 months ago.”
When will Rugby in Australia get a national domestic competition like the other football codes?
“What needs to be understood is that the NRL, the AFL and the A-League competitions effectively represent the first or second tiers of those codes.
Rugby league has State of Origin and an occasional Test match above the NRL competition. The A-League sits below the Socceroos’ calendar of games. The AFL has only its club competition. In Rugby, we have the Wallabies’ international program as tier one and then Super Rugby as tier two.
A national domestic competition therefore becomes the third tier of the game.
The challenge therefore, if a third tier competition is to be staged on a national basis, is how to make it financially viable and subsequently sustainable in the long term. The ARC lost more than $5 million in its first and only year. The ARU’s current reserves are $15 million.
Do the math.
Premier Rugby currently fills that third tier in our game and the competitions have been strengthened immeasurably by the infusion of Wallaby players over the last couple of years.”
When will nations like Canada, USA, Argentina, Japan and China be brought into an Asia-Pacific conference involving Australia and New Zealand?
“There has been dialogue with Argentina about their future involvement with SANZAR countries. They want to be part of a Four Nations Test championship.
There are still issues that require resolution, however, with Argentina’s leading players mostly contracted to Northern Hemisphere clubs.
We have a good relationship with Japan and have kept them abreast of developments on the Super Rugby front.
They were not ready on this occasion to seek entry as the additional team when Super Rugby expands in 2011. In terms of other developing nations, we are open to dialogue about the future.
SANZAR will expand further in the years ahead and anything is possible.”
Where do you see rugby in ten years time in Australia in comparison with the other football codes?
“Second only to football in terms of having a truly international presence and a strong domestic game; Rugby to be an Olympic sport via the Sevens program; Major integration with the Asia/Pacific region, with additional Super Rugby teams, including a side or sides in Japan; A continued upholding of the culture, ethos and traditions of the game; Rugby to be a positive influence on Australia’s youth.”
Melb Rebel
Guest
Never going to be a fan of John O'Neil especially the way he treated Melb during the Super 15 bidding process. His true colours have been shown during his term as Head of NSW Major Events. But look at the outstanding career experience of the kid running the strategic and commercial marketing strategy for the ARU. Good one John! How is the that Stax brand travelling four years later? Jade MacAuslan Insights & Brand Planning Manager at Australian Rugby Union Sydney Area, Australia Sports Current Insights & Brand Planning Manager at Australian Rugby Union Past Junior Brand Manager at PepsiCo International Education University of Technology, Sydney Experience Insights & Brand Planning Manager Australian Rugby Union Non-Profit; Sports industry April 2007 – Present (3 years 1 month) 1. Using my FMCG experience I have initiated and developed the Australian Rugby Union’s strategic and commercial marketing plan for the next 3 years, a process which has not been implemented within the Australian Rugby Union for the past 5 years and has been adopted across a number of cross functions to aid their planning. 2.Managed and disseminated all consumer research conducted by the Australian Rugby Union. Decision Making Research As a result of a detailed pricing analysis I conducted, which reviewed the past 4 years of Rugby and competitor pricing, conducted research into the role of price in consumers’ decision to attend Rugby events. Exit Interviews Research conducted at Sydney and Brisbane Test matches to understand effectiveness of match day presentation and identify focus areas for investment of ARU which contributed positively to overall consumer experience. Brand Health Tracking Management and implementation of the brand health tracking research into the daily and annual marketing reporting and planning. Working closely with the agency, ensured the tracking output delivered actionable insights and clear results that could be understood by all levels of management within the business. 3. Reviewed all ticketing and memberships activities implemented at the ARU which I then used to develop targeted ticketing initiatives to maximise sales of Rugby events. Successfully, achieved 378% growth in sales sourced from Grassroots rugby community in 2009 vs 2008 due to this review and creation process. This improved return on ticket profitability by alleviating the need to inject complimentary tickets into the market to achieve desired crowd levels. 4.Created and managed commercial tracking systems, which involved a 2 year process of collating and centralising all data existing within the ARU in addition to searching and collecting all competitor data which had not been done previously. Junior Brand Manager PepsiCo International Food & Beverages industry June 2002 – March 2006 (3 years 10 months) 1. Developed and delivered, with the Marketing Manager, a brand plan which grew the $250 million Smith’s brand by 9% on year ago and 6% above target. Delivered consumer preferred packaging. Identified competitive advantage for the Smith’s brand through offering first health claim on a major snack brand “25% Lower in Saturated Fat” Assisted the Marketing Manager and worked closely with the advertising agency to develop a powerful long term media campaign for the Smith’s brand to be aired in 2006. 2. Launched the Smith’s Stax brand in the Australian market, which delivered 20% incremental revenue to the business and 30% market share steal from the Pringles brand. Ensured seamless execution of the launch and worked on all commercial aspects including advertising, pricing, procurement, logistics, importing from Mexico and sales execution. 3. Initiated and developed a global gold standard flavour development process, Master Chef process, which is used across PepsiCo markets. Worked with both local and global R&D teams and delivered consumer preferred concepts and flavours ready for launch 12 months prior to in market date.
Heartland?
Guest
What has been done to put more resources into the western suburbs of Sydney, the heartland for most of the major Australian sports? What? The two largest sports in Australia are Summer (Cricket) and Winter (Australian Football). I really doubt either would describe western Sydney as their "heartland." What a misleading question to ask! Battleground would be a more apt description for western sydney!
Grant from Perth
Guest
The AFL is always the gorilla in the room that John O'Neill conveniently glosses over. How on earth can O'Neill argue that in 10 years Super League will be second to soccer as the premier competition in Australia when average AFL crowds now exceed those of the English Premier League and are only second to the NFL in the United States. Even in Perth ( the furthest metropolitan area from Melbourne) EACH of the TWO AFL teams has crowds, TV ratings and membership numbers that the Auckland Blues (the jewel of Super League ) or the Brisbane Broncos (the jewel of the NRL) would kill for (and the two Perth teams are second and third bottom of the AFL table). Adelaide is the same, and this century there has been main-stream penetration of metropolitan Brisbane by the AFL (look at the Lions). Even in Auckland now 3,000 young kids play Kiwikick -n the junior AFL competition. Do I need to talk about Melbourne !
Yikes
Guest
C'mon westy. It is partly their own faults. Penrith and Parramatta were given a great solution to the Colts situation that would have put them in a position to win some games, and slowly rebuild, by entering their Colts 2 and Colts 3 teams in the new Sydney Colts comp. They voted against it. Even though they said at the time it was probably in their best interests. What can you do to for clubs that votes against something they admit is in their best interest?
westy
Guest
If JON wants to break the perception of Australian rugby as the sport of elite private schools than Western Sydney must b get asuper 14 franchise. Melbourne is more of the same only worse. From personal experience you have been warned all corporate and upper crust. Penrith are doing such an amazing job they do not even run a first grade Colts and it is hard to lose second grade Colts by 113 to nil. I get tired of this sanctimonious bullshit.Kick of score kick of and after awhile they do not even kick for goal or is the real truth no one from the ARU has ever witnessed the debacle .
Katipo
Guest
Thanks to John O'Neill for taking time to respond to the questions. I have an observation on the tier issue. NZ has a similar dilemma. Since turning professional they have created an extra tier of professional rugby between test level and their national championship. In my opinion this hasn't worked. It has created extra expense and diminished the value of their NPC. The ARU see the mistake the kiwis have made but, in avoiding this extra tier, the ARU misses out on a national championship of its own. I understand why they are hesitant but I think there is a solution. Australia doesn't have enough rugby, NZ & SA have too much. The solution calls for each country to control their own destiny. My suggestion is similar to Sheek's: each sanzar country plays a domestic national championship. The top teams (or hybrid teams) qualify to compete in a "super" tournament (Champions League style). And its relatively easy to expand this tournament to include champions from other regions. As I see it, the super 15 conferences proposal delivers a defacto Australian national championship anyway. We are nearly there. Why not seize on the interest from the wannabe super15 franchises? If western sydney, melbourne, etc can put a team on the field, and pay the bills, then let them do it in a national comp. That would make a lot of rugby people happy. NZ & SA already have Currie Cup and NPC so they would have the option of dismantling one or other of their tiers (and associated costs) as long as they presented teams for the super tournament. I'll leave it to you... all the best!
AndyS
Guest
Got a reference for that - just because they are in our conference, it doesn't mean that their additional home games wouldn't be added to whichever tour was relevant (e.g all tours to SA would include the Spears + the 2 or 3 teams that would currently comprise the tour). I ask because, if true, it would almost guarantee that the best outcome for the ARU would be to introduce an overseas team. The fifth team would be paid for out of either SA or NZ cut of revenues, and the fifth teams "home" matches in Australia would effectively be another home match for each of the Australian sides. No cost to the ARU, no additional pressure on playing stocks, and more money for each of the existing teams - why wouldn't they do that?
AndyS
Guest
Longer, but not much more - greater duration but with big gaps in between. It only works out as three extra games for any given team, of which one or two will be at home. Not much more actual rugby, and it will still be all over in August. Altogether, not much different for mine.
Yikes
Guest
I agree with you on the issues of overall structure. You've already admitted that the administrators are paid for by NSWRU. They are not paid for by affiliation fees. That is therefore money from NSWRU being spent on your competition. Whether Sydney Juniors recoups its costs is irrelevant as there are things being provided that are not part of the Sydney Juniors budget. We will have to simply disagree on the referee issue. The point of comparing with different codes is quite simple. You claim no money is spent at your level because you have to pay for courses. If other codes with more money and more resources are charging more for their courses, it demonstrates that you are unreasonably low-balling your estimate of what it costs to provide these services. And hence you think you're paying for something when in fact you're getting a bloody good deal. If this is tiresome, sorry. But it's important that people know that your claim of no money being spent at club level is just wrong, and is damaging to the game. People who hear this get delusional and start thinking (as you do) they actually make money for the higher bodies...
Bring Back Rucking
Guest
Yikes This is a bit tiresome but The Nth Region is not my zone so pleased to hear that the trial is now a firm committment. still two is not enough. In fact you are correct about the administrators being employed by Subbies but from monies supplied by NSWRU. They then run the comps for SJRU. Our clubs affiliation fees still reflect the costs of the administrators. You have no idea what you are talking about in regard to the referees program for the school. I directly talked to NSW referees at HQ. Had nothing to to do your example. A different issue so do not say I am false as you are wrong. I am mistaken about the school subs, apology. I thought my school son's rugby levy partly went to HQ I agree we don't pay referees well. Do not see the relevance of comparing with other sports as we are supposedly an amateur game struggling for participant numbers. Let's keep kids costs as low as possible. The SJRU...a profit is a profit, therefore it suggests mathematically that they are recuperating their costs. (Including rep fees) However, what about the overall structure
David
Guest
I don't know (the problem of those damned balance sheets, again) but the emergence of OneHD and its take-up could be a solution for the ARU - if it created a national club comp then the Ten Network could be attracted as it desperately needs some more local content to further increase its audience - I mean, I enjoy extreme paintball as much as the next person but seriously!! The ABC also has digital capacity on ABC2 on Saturdays and Sundays for sport. Why couldn't the ARU and the ABC collaborate as a consortium to run a national club competition - JON, if you're reading this, I have no problem if you pinch my idea!
Pippinu
Roar Guru
but would the ARU truly want a national comp that is broadcast on the ABC?? Will TV rights of a few grand pay for a national comp??
Yikes
Guest
BBR There a 2 people in Northern Zone. There is no longer a trial. If this is your area, this is a worry you don't know this. The fact that Syd Juniors look like recording a (modest) profit does not mean that all administration costs are paid for by Sydney Juniors. After all, the Juniors administrators are actually employed by NSW Suburban Rugby. Your story about a local school and refereeing is simply false. The cost per person was for a program that would run two days a week for over 3 months and be mainly staffed by referee coaches from the Sydney South association, most of whom are retired or semi-retired and none of whom are salaried, including an external personal trainer. Rep player costs are NOT fully recouped, but are, in fact, subsidised. Individual schools do NOT pay any subscription costs to NSWRU or ARU. You pay referees a pittance compared to league, AFL, soccer, netball and basketball. And if you think the rugby course costs are high, you are very welcome to log on to any comparable sporting body and see what their costs are for coaching and refereeing courses. You will be surprised. You get annoyed when you are told how well off you are? You clearly don't know the half of it.
David
Guest
thanks Sheek, I always appreciate your posts. Chop, I can see the lights of Viking Park from my kitchen window - it"s a great facility for top-level club rugby and if the Vikings were invited back into the third tier, my boy and I would go down to support them. The Kookas were great ... what a team. A few Wallabies came out of that team which almost won the Sydney premiership. I have seen no posts from anyone defending the insular, parochial Sydney club mentality. Also suprisingly, no-one has refuted my perception of the ABC TV coverage of club rugby. It's time for the ABC to think national, not local, in the way its commentators and analyst view the Sydney club game. If the ABC was serious about broadcasting sport, it should be pushing the ARU to get its club land in order so it can broadcast a national club comp.
Bring Back Rucking
Guest
Bay35Pablo Thankyou for seeing my point I have done levels 1, 2, 3 coaching and L1 refereeing Paying costs from $120 to $380 accordingly. All courses are run at mostly subsidised venues ( such as schools, rugby clubs) and in Sydney at NSW HQ ( don't think there would be a hire charge there). All presenters were full time staff paid by ARU or affiliates. Rep players costs are recouped by charging the players a fee ( Well done son-- you have been chosen for your zone/city/country now please pay $120). Sponsors support the governing bodies with extras. Clubs pay subscriptions per players. schools pay subs. we pay referees ( albeit not a lot) we pay to appear at the judiciary, so be it ......thats fundraing in club land BUT. I get really annoyed when I am told how well off we are and what a wonderful job our august bodies are doing for us. However, they will send the wallaby mascot for free when they need to drum up ticket sales.
Bring Back Rucking
Guest
Yikes..I have seen and have dissected the the SJRU budget for this year and they forcaste a profit ( including the costs you mention)so not sure about your point there. Also, 67% of Sydney junior players are in the Metro North Zone. There is a single development officer in this zone. The second person you discuss is involved in a NTH Area development which is a trial. I hope like hell that they continue the initiative but I am not confident. However on the major concern..I have not suggested the ARU hand out cash, i agree this would be crazy. I am talking about monies towards more development officers and free coaching courses. However to achieve these monies a restructure of the pathway and competitions is paramount. The current structure just dilutes the spend. In fact in all my posts above I encourage a centrally controlled approach. Again I point to the Kiwi model which is centrally based and allows strong and fun competitions to work together. The centralised approach would mean less administrators required( as an example there are 3 NSW admin officers running 3 metro comps in Sydney and the duplication of duties is very evident). This money then could be reinvested back into juniors. Also the administration savings could be channeled to referees development at the junior end. If for some reason this centralised approach did not deliver great savings it would, at the very least, give us a coordinated approach. I am sure that you are aware of some boys playing 4 or more games a week for their school, club, district and zone. While maybe this is Ok as a 12year old from 14 on boys are sustaining injuries and quite often leaving our game through exhaustion and boredom. Again my point is that the ARU is the best ship to steer a course of cordinating a ONE WAY approach. This for all juniors in Australia. Currently there are even different laws from one state to the next at juniors. Again I reiterate that whether it is club or school based I am agnostic but I hope with the right goodwill from all parties it could be achieved. It is for these and many other issues that I am disappointed that JON and the ARU are neglecting this problem. They have the biggest stick (funds) and they have a vested interest in developing ALL juinor players by forcing all parties to the table.
sheek
Guest
David, In the mid-late 90s both Canberra Kookaburras & Newcastle Wildfires were part of the Sydney premier rugby. Then about 5 years ago we also had the Illawarra Warriors & Central Coast Waves competing in the Sydney premier rugby. But guess what? On each occasion the Sydney clubs moaned & groaned about traveling to Canberra, Newcastle, Wollongong & Gosford. Poor diddums. If the Sydney clubs can't be bothered traveling 2-3 hours from home in the comfort of a bus, then they're sure as not going to be bothered traveling 3-4 hours to Perth in the comfort of an aeroplane, for a national comp game. The Sydney premier rugby clubs show scant regard for developing the game within their own state, let alone the country. In fact, if they had their way it would a cosy 8 team comp - University, Easts, Randwick, Norths, Manly, Warringah, Gordon & Eastwood. Just the Eastern Suburbs & North Shore, thank you very much!
Sam Taulelei
Guest
I'm interested to see what position he would play. The biggest challenge for Hunt as a player is not learning new skills but to unlearn the skills and habits of a lifetime of playing league, particularly tackling technique. I can't see a flood of NRL players defecting to AFL, the body types are very different between the two codes but the threat this announcement poses to junior players in Queensland should be of concern to both league and union.
Yikes
Guest
BBR - actually no. In most cases any rego fees charged for courses do not cover the cost of the resources provided (which might include any of: printed documents and DVDs and the cost do develop those resources, venue hire, catering, presenter costs, and gear provided afterwards like ref jerseys or TJ flags and shirts, coach accreditation cards, etc). The affiliation costs raised by Sydney Juniors do not cover the administrator costs. As anyone at Sydney Juniors will tell you, these are used largely to run the competitions - like Grand Final day which alone costs over $30,000, provide subsidies for rep programs, pay for judiciary expenses, etc. As for development officers, well there are now 2 in the north, 2 in the south and 2 in the west. Sure it's not what league or AFL have, but it's a start. So I don't know which club you are the president of, but you should ask around so you know the resources you should be using! You haven't addressed my major concern though - what a bad idea it would be if ARU simply gave out cash to all the junior clubs for them to spend on whatever they wanted with no central co-ordinated approach. It would be chaos and most of the money would be wasted.
Bay35Pablo
Roar Guru
BBR, This is all part of this ridiculous user pays attitude, so beloved by the fools in government and those responsible for the GFC. As you say, if the refs are already paid for, why charge the kids and schools?!?! It is a disincentive, as opposed to the benefits obtained for the sport overall. it's like public transport, if you charged people what it cost, no one would use it, but the benefits obtained elsewhere outweigh the subsidies. The bean counters are in charge, and we wonder why the sport is floundering.