The Roar's Football Razzies of 08-09

I agree with you Greg - when it comes to the pantheon of all-time Football greats Kaka would be lucky to warm the bench. I just used the Carter comparison as my Rugby knowledge is pretty limited. I knew Carter was a great player but did not realise where he fitted in the great scheme of things. Sometimes Greg, you can only be only as good as the team around you. This is especially, the case with the exceptional Barcelona team of last season who took all before them.. With the exception of Ronaldo, 4 out of the top 5 in the Balon D'or played for Barcelona. Then Kaka came 6th. So what did Madrid do they to combat the dreaded spectre of Barcelona hegemony, they bought Ronaldo and Kaka. What Freud was complaining was the exorbitant transfer fee Madrid paid for Kaka. 56 million pounds, but Madrid also paid an exorbitant 80 million pounds for Ronaldo. Considering Real Madrid spent the money - they should be the ones best placed to see how the 2 compare. Madrid paid about 40% more for Ronaldo than Kaka. But Kaka is 3 years older. If Kaka was Ronaldo's age you can make an argument Madrid would almost pay the same amount for both players. Finally, Ronaldo, Kaka, Henry, they are all great players and it would be wonderful if one day Australia could have a player of such talent. Kewell came close but we have yet to produce a player that kids all over the world want to put on their backs.

AS - thanks for the measured response. I have no problem with anything you have written here on football, except to make the point once again that there are only so many spaces at the top of a list. So if you put Kaka in your current top 3 (say), then you'll have to leave out some pretty big names. I thought some more about why Freud's inclusion of Kaka may have riled so many people. It's possibly because of the other names on his list. It might be taken from this that Freud is ranking Kaka alongside Owen, Carragher, etc. Such a ranking is obviously absurd, and I cannot believe Freud would have meant that. My own interpretation of Freud on Kaka is simply that he's suggesting that he's no longer (I stress the last two words) in the top handful. When I agreed with this, I wasn't aware that the Ballon rankings for 2009 were also in agreement with this opinion, with Kaka not being in the top 5, just as he also wasn't last year (and yes, I'm aware that 6th is close to top 5, but it is not top 5, and see my earlier comment about there only being so many spaces at the top of a list). On rugby, I'm wondering if you realize how good Dan Carter is? As my astute, knowledgeable and rugby loving boss said to me last Friday night, "New Zealand has had other loose forwards as good as McCaw, but I don't think there has ever been a rugby player as good as Carter." Carter then gave a performance against the French fully consistent with this. There is no single skill at which he's the best there has ever been, but he's very strong in every single skill. I have never seen another 10 who is so good in all departments, and 10 is the most important position on the rugby field. I'd say he's the Pele of rugby, except that I'm not even sure Pele was so strong in all departments (who of us actually saw enough of him to know?) So, too right you would not say this about Carter, and even to compare Kaka with Carter is not right, because I think we can definitely agree that it's not right to talk of Kaka as one of the greats of all time. (That said, I do realise that football is played by billions, rugby not even by millions. So the competition to be the greatest in football is many, many times tougher.)

"but look at the leap on Henry (well previously, probably not as good now) and particularly Ronaldo" Neither does Henry. That was one of the 'jokes' when Henry was in his prime, everyone kept asking 'will he ever score a goal with his head.' "Henry (who I think has been overrated since he’s been at Barca)" But this raises the question, 'what is overrated,' because by all accounts, Henry was very poor in his first season at Barca? The fans and press weren't happy with his form, so does that mean he was overrated? By all accounts he's improved, but has he really been getting the accolades? On Kaka, he's a fabulous player, who was fantastic against Manchester United in 'that' semi-final. It was one/two of those performances where you thought, 'is it possible to stop him', that's how good he was.

FoF, don't agree with any of your choices for overated - those 5 are great players and have made Australia football what it is today - to borrow a term from another football code . . . :) Zeljko, Holman, John Aloisi, Lucas and Scott McDonald are a bit overrated.

You didn't miss much (not watching the final).

Thanks for the input Freud, much appreciated. Football is a game of opinions. My opinion is Messi as long as he remains injury-free in his twenties will go downs as one of the greatest players ever. Don't get me wrong, I really admired Henry as a player. He had that great but also frustrating tendency to make a goal look as pretty as possible. But, it did cost him a few times. Anyway, opinion is one thing, Fact is another. Henry 1.88m Kaka 1.86m C Ronaldo 1.86m Yes, Messi is a little man, Kaka sure isn't.

I know what goal that was before I even looked at that clip. It's my favorite Goal ever, well 2nd favorite after Yankos vs Argentina but that is for personal reasons.

Greg - where did I state that you agree with everything Freud writes. I did no such thing. All I did was take issue with you agreeing with Freud's view of Kaka and even give you a nice link to view the wonderful talents of Kaka. Did you watch the video?? Video evidence can sometimes make a powerful argument. Educated football watchers like Vicentin replied to your post with a lovely decsription as to why Kaka is regarded so highly. Sure all opinions are subjective, but when global collective football opinion rates Kaka as one of the best current players in the world and Maradona as one of the if not greatest player of all time, then it does carries weight. I have got no idea what you think of Messi. But I did in my earlier post make an argument on how Freud's opinion on Messi can be seen as misguided. Freud's is absolutely entiltled to his opinions. Its a good thing he has a thick skin because he sure cops enough on this site. Finally, I have never ever called myself a supreme expert on football. I am just a someone who has watched football and sport for over 30 years and I pass the time at work by commenting on this site. I, actually, appreciate most of your comments as sometimes you looks at things from a refreshingly different perspective. But one thing I will not do is go on a Rugby thread and write about Dan Carter - "someone who can run, throw accurately and kick the occasional goal, but he’s nowhere near THAT good" :)

AS: ... did I actually write all those things? Sort of dangerous to imply that because I mildly agreed with one thing Freud wrote, then I probably agree with everything he wrote, and that my "knowledge on football is questionable", especially given that you agreed with the tangent on which I went. Perhaps you are also thinking back to last week, where I committed the "sin" of agreeing with something from IFFHS, therefore I'm questionable. I'll openly admit, as I have before, that you (AS) are super knowledgeable on football, more so than me. But I'd also wager that the guys at IFFHS would give you a very good run for your money. With your comments on DAM last week I also think you need to work on understanding the concept of sustained excellence. If one judges DAM only on his peaks, then sure, he was perhaps even greater than Pele. But it's quite legitimate to judge someone on their entire body of work ... DAM had a lot of sustained lows that bring the average well down from the amazing height of his peaks. In defence of Freud on Kaka: an interpretation of what he wrote is that (1) he's talking about Kaka 2009, not Kaka the Ballon d'Or winner from 2007 (a lot of the present arguments seem to be based on this version of 2 years ago), (2) he's not saying that Kaka is poor, just that he's not as out-of-this-world as many people rate him, and (3) It's easy to say Kaka is "brilliant" one day, the same for Messi the next day, Ronaldo the next, and so on. If the discussion is only about one of them at a time, then each can be the greatest alive. But put them all on a list and order them, so that only one can be the greatest. Where does Kaka come then? He actually hasn't made the Ballon top 5 for the last 2 years, which if anything adds weight to Freud's point. Anyway, you are correct that my knowledge on football minutiae isn't great these days. I do my best not to comment outside my limits of knowledge. But after one has watched a lot of sport and read a lot about sport, the general patterns tend to become very clear. They change remarkably little. On football I try only to comment on general impressions (Kaka's ranking being such a thing). To give an example: do I really need to have watched every minute of Torres playing for Liverpool to say that he should definitely have been in the top 10 for the Ballon? After one has seen tens of thousands of goals scored (as I have - there was a time when I watched many matches per week), one has a built-in compass, and so footage of a couple of goals from Torres is enough to say confidently that he is something truly special. Whatever, don't take this the wrong way. I do like and appreciate your (AS's) work, very much. But no-one is the font of all knowledge, not you, not me, not even the real Freud (Sigmund).

It’s certainly a different perspective when your nation actually makes the world cup. I am much more emotionally involved in the outcome rather than just enjoying the contest.. The Euro seeding, I was dead set against it….. the worse the teams are at the world cup the better is my thinking now :) I normally watch a lot of the world cup (I think in 2002 I watched every minute of the quarterfinals plus) and I saw a lot if games in 2006 up until Australia was knocked out. After that I felt quite empty (but not for the Italian penalty, I was watching it with my Pop who blamed Neil straight away... I eventually came around) and the only other match i watched after that was Argentina vs Germany. I didn’t even watch the final.

Are there any others??!!

Vicentin, really enjoyed that first paragraph. I wish we had a football here at work right now :)

spoken like a lazy sicilian, Pip :)

Art thanks for the info - I too had a clear memory of Kaka single handedly bringing the CL trophy back to Milan (clear stand out, with supporting roles from Pirlo, Seedorf and Inzaghi) - but couldn't remember the year - and I was far too lazy to look it up!!

Completely agree AS ... and ditto those comments re FoF's assertion that Henry is the equal of Cristiano Ronaldo ... they're not on the same sphere

I think Kaka is a brilliant player having watched (ok, not live) him at Milan over many seasons. Part of his brilliance is his understatedness - he doesn't need to do heaps of stepovers or other really flashy things. He has great technique - first touch etc, and has a great passing game but his greatest attribute is his brain (even if some part of it is weirdly given over to evangelicalism ....). The guy uses space really well, he is invariably moving to the ball when he receives it and his first touch takes him in the direction he wants to go. That first touch is often not to somewhere near his feet therefore no need for stepovers but to a space between or behind defenders where he then uses his great acceleration and speed (and the fact that the defenders are going in the opposite direction) to continue with the move. I think he has better vision and game intelligence than 99.8 percent of players out there. Shoot me down but its my subjective opinion and I'm sticking to it. Couldn't give a toss whether he Brazilian or or Belarussian by the way. Also the flaws FOF attributes to Pirlo are valid to a degree - he is bloody slow most of the time these days and it gets him in to trouble which is why he's often milking fouls, but still if you watch enough of him play rather than the odd game where he doesn't turn up, he still delivers on the game intelligence and killer passes. I'd probably agree he's past his prime - who's goes on about him anyway in the "over-rated" sense anyway? I hear more people slag him off than particularly praise him these days. I also completely disagree with the disparaging comments on Messi, I think he's great. I think Ronaldo is great too - I just don't like him though. I also think they're ridiculously different to each other. It's all very Oasis V Blur, or for earlier Australian generations Sherbet Vs Skyhooks. Is that the time? I'm hungry ciao!

I agree Greg - what makes Brazil such a formidable team at the moment is they are very strong from 1 to 11. But seriously, I think your knowledge on football is questionable, just like the author of the piece, but at least you have the humility to so that you might be wrong. " Kaka - someone who can run fast and pass accurately and score the occasional goal, but he’s nowhere near THAT good.” This will go down as one of the most ridiculous statements in the history of football. Well done, Freud. Kaka convincingly won the Balon D'or in 2007 defeating Ronaldo and Messi in the process. The 2 other players that make up the three best current players in the world. But that year he dominated the champions league and also single handedly dismantled Man U. He has also made the FIFPro World XI for the last three years running. The World XI are chosen by the footballers themselves. Still, not convinced here is further proof. Watch the video and see if Freud's ridiculous statement still rings true. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zU9hsWjKBDA&feature=related Mystifyingly Freud also rates Henry above Messi. Yes Henry was a very fine player in his prime, but if you compare what Henry and Messi have achieved by Lionel's current age of 22, well then there is no contest. I'll give you a clue at the age of 22 Henry had just joined Arsenal. Henry's stellar years were in his mid twenties. Messi's best years are still ahead of him. Oh yes and there was that goal he scored - should not forget that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIep5g_GeSQ Freud might write alot about football, Greg, but unforunately, he views the football world in EPL prescription rose coloured glasses.