What's more vital: a gun forward or defender?

interesting. any idea on this years competition, and what team allows the least goals / opponent FG % ?? just going back to a conversation earlier in the piece, how a lot of the stats and analysis in footy is about the offense and neglects the defense. Be good to know something like this : Collingwood averages 12.12 in defense @ 50% Opponent FG with team totals of 50 turnovers & avg 60 tackles per game. if theys had something to that effect for TEAM stats - it would only be a matter of time before they create a way to measure the indiviudals as well! its very hard to do with footy though, you look at fletchers defense, and it was great, but only reads as 1 tackle??

re goal %, a couple of weeks ago I did a quick comparison of the H&A seasons 1979 vs 2009. In 1979, 3936 goals and 3947 behinds. Giving just under 50% goals and just over 50% behinds, (match avg, 29.8 goals per game and 29.9 behinds per game) in 2009, 4694 goals and 4008 behinds, Giving around 54% goals and 46% behinds (match avg 26.6 goals and 22.77 behinds) I'll get around to it one day to do some broader reviews, but, it illustrates that goal kicking/conversion these days isn't all that shabby whilst that the defensive component of games has shaved off about 3 goals a game - - but increased skills?? (or the rushed behind rule) has smashed away 7 behinds a game.

he was awesome, and everyone watching with me agreed had a great deal of influence on the match. thanks for the stat - on the flip side of the coin - do you know what a healthy team defense allows their opposition to score against them? for example - collingwood only allow an average of 78 points per game at 48% accuracy (they are made up btw)

Fletcher was awesome. Gave considerable weight to the argument that defenders are more valuable than key forwards. Or at least that they can have as much influence on a match. Goal percentage of about 56% is what the league leading sides get over the course of the season. So for every 100 scoring shots, a side should kick 56 goals or thereabouts.

dustin fletcher was outstanding. but the stats dont really tell the story. His influence on the game was inspirational. can anyone tell me what is considered a good kicking % in goals v behinds, and what is average / unacceptable?

So after yesterday's match, does that make it Barry Hall 2, Scott Thompson nil? Thompson looked scared out of his wits. I guess a Barry Hall headlock will do that to you.

Fletcher definitely showed the value of a defender on Friday night against the Saints. Far more effective than any forward, and had a massive sway on the outcomes of the match as a defender. Best on ground my a MILE.

Just deleted my drivel...

Dustin Fletcher is certainly much loved and valued by Essendon fans. Great game from him on Friday night against the Saints.

ah - that's something, isn't it, part of the media still lives in this Gary Ablett Snr vs Paul Salmon 'shoot out' idea of the ideal 'match up',......which, to me, is a bit too much like a 'match up' in the sense of other codes with people at opposite ends of the field. the real 'match up' was such as the old days where we'd look forward to Carey vs Jakovich, or Carey vs McGrath or Lockett vs Silvagni Presently, and what the media seems to forget but was highlighted recently - - the 'iron men' - the players to have the most game time (generally 100% of nearest to) are defenders and key defenders and then Jack Riewoldt. Personally I loved the Jack Riewoldt vs Nathan Grima clash 2 weeks back. Last week we saw Lachie Hansen vs Michael Hurley and we might see these 2 match ups stretching into the next 5-8 years. And this week, will we see Scottie Thompson vs Barry Hall again??? It still there if we look for it.

Lads, An interesting article and responses. Having watched Cornes for most of his career it's no surprise he went for the gun forward. Studley was, after all, the ultimate "mug lair" but he could play footy and was seriously spectacular when on song. Curiously, he played for Glenelg (in the SANFL) when they had the most spectacular, attacking style of play around (they got 49 goals one day against Central Districts in 1975). However, the Tiges only won one flag during Cornsey's time as a player (1973) though they should have won more. They were often beaten by teams which had a strong defence and by strong I mean talent and muscle. The argument is no modern question. Defence vs attack has been in vogue for years, decades. One thing, look at those teams which have won the VFL/AFL premiership in the last 50 years and what do you see? Muscle, and plenty of it. This type of strength is usually associated with defence but not exclusively - see Carey, Mooney, Chapman, Lloyd, Franklin, Dew etc. The great Richmond sides had Balme, Sheedy, Bourke, Clay, Patterson, Hart et al who could all hold their own physically. Collingwood had McKenna but never won a flag, St.Kilda had Lockett but..... Hawthorn was different because, apart from the key forward in Dunstall, they also had Langford, Ayres, Brereton, Mew, Dipper etc. and let's not forget Dunstall was physically a big lad. The gun forward is a huge weapon but defence wins premierships and always has, whether it's VFL/AFL, or the SANFL or the WAFL. Stop them scoring and winning becomes easier. It's easier to kick 12 goals than 20. Think about Geelong in the past few years. Was it fire-power that stopped the Saints last year - or just power? Sheek, I liked your chess analogy, I can relate to that, and it classically highlights the weakness of all out attack. It's fantastic when it comes off but it doesn't come off enough - and almost never in the "big games". Still, Cornsey always loved kicking a goal. Just a note for those who read Jim Main's Footy Encyclopedia, Cornes was not a centre half forward. In over 300 SANFL games he might have played 20-30 there. For the vast majority he was a ruck rover in Glenelg's first ruck of Peter Carey, Cornes and Kim Hodgeman. Taller and quicker than Chad but not as well muscled - he could, however, jump over a house like the Birdman.

sheek mentioned earlier, that no matter what sport you play, defense is highly valued, but not always easily recognized. i think all sports should borrow from each other, and a lot of statistcal categories could probably carry over for analysis. i recall seeing "metres gained" in runs in soccer a long time before i ever saw it in rugby. Now it seems the norm for a telecast to show a player in how many tackles hes done, metres gained, line busts, assists, trys etc. The same should and can be applied to AFL. it would be great to see defensive players with stats like; Tackles + spoils, smothers, effective fists, metres gained out of 50, turnovers effected etc. And before anyone says anything about how pointless effective fists are, please tell that to dustin fletcher. He has made a career out of fisting the ball out of his defensive zone! if anything, it would make the game more enjoyable to watch, and everyone as a whole would see how effective a good defender is if we had something quantifiable to measure against. BTW Michael, i selected presti a couple of years agon in my dream team, and got absolutely murdered. I think he is a good defender, but it doesnt show on paper as you said :)

at the end of the day, you'd just like, as coach, to be able to do the under 12 thing of just writing in the best players section, "TEAM EFFORT".

as a born defender, I valued my effective spoils as highly as a forward might value an 'assist' or a midfield an effective tackle. At the club level though - - these stats are known. What's published in the media though - will spare us that detail.