International eligibility: this week’s storm

Recently science learned DNA is passed on differently to sons and daughters. Sons get 90% DNA from their fathers & only10% from their mothers. Daughters get 50% from both parents. This explains how Mark Birtwhistle can be 'half Samoan' and look like a palangi. He got 90% of his DNA from his Caucasian Dad. This explains a lot huh.

To Bono @4.08pm,made the point on another thread about why Aus were given two more sides, and how O'Neill has gone back on his word. My personal view, is that O'Neill had no intention of going after off - shore ozzies,but was just going to use the extra franchises to target nz talent.

Just out of interest, if the IRB members were to vote tomorrow on potentially changing eligibility then what chance would change have? There are 28 votes and to overturn regulations you need 21 votes (75%). The votes are distrubuted as follows. Scotland, Ireland, Wales, England, France, New Zealand, Australia and South Africa get two (2) votes each. Argentina, Italy, Japan and Canada get one (1) vote each. Europe, North America, South America, Africa, Asia and Oceania get one (1) vote each. The Chairman (Lapasset - France) and Vice Chairman (Hoskins - South Africa) get one (1) vote each. If you need 21 who do Roarers think would actually vote to make it harder to switch countries, who would benefit from change? I'd say those who'd push for change would be: New Zealand, South Africa, Argentina and possibly Oceania. Although the Pacific countries have done well out of 3rd generation players from NZ in particular. Against you'd likely have: Wales, Scotland, Ireland, England, France, Canada, Italy, Australia, Japan and most of the regions. All have benefitted strongly from either short residency when converting young talent and grandparents rules when using established stars. So good luck to anyone trying to see this changed. Maybe it is time for the IRB to take a leave out of the ARU and move to an independent governance structure. Time for the game to move on and act in the interests of Rugby first and individuals second!!

It's quite clear that the system is now flawed and is being exploited by Tier 1 nations to overcome deficiencies in their internal develoment structures. Clubs can buy whatever players they like, national representative sport is different. I agree with the scrapping of the grandparent rule and the extension of residency to 5 years (more than one WC cycle). I'd also suggest that investigations be taken into profit sharing on match days as well. Again the ARU has also leveraged on the NZRU's back for the upcoming tours. SANZAR has negotiated a fee increase for games outside the test window of £1.5M, which will be paid by the RFU for the All Blacks and by the WRU for the Wallabies for their extra games this season. Previously the ARU got £800K for games, while the NZRU got £1M. But in this case the ARU has received a huge increase in revenue due to being lumped in with the All Blacks. It is great that IRB has put in place a long term touring plan, whereby all nations must play a mix of Tier I and II nations. This should also be extended to include 33% of match-day profits going to the touring team. This will provide a large financial boost to nations like Fiji and Samoa when they run out at Twickenham and Murrayfield and allow them to compete with the pay of the French clubs to entice the PI players to participate in non World Cup matches.

I wasn't aware anyone in nz was questioning Vunipola's eligibility to play for England. As you say, he's gone through the pom's development systems.... therefore he's a pom.

RF According to Wales, Shingler signed a form before the tournament acknowledging that he was committing himself to Wales on the basis that the squad was the designated second team to the welsh national team. I have suggested that all teams use the Junior World Cup as the basis for eligibility. Whether this is instead of, or in addition to, the A team can be debated. What it would do would ensure that countries that develop their own players at junior level are rewarded. It means Vunipola can't be questioned by Kiwis because he was brought through the English developmental system after arriving in England as a seven year old culminationg in playing for England U20s in the Junior RWC. It would mean there is a disincentive for Australian Super sides to sign Kiwi players as almost all those they target would have played at some stage in the U20 RWC. I believe this would be good for both NZ and Australian rugby.

An U20 player is only becomes tied to a country if he takes the field against an U20 side from a country which also designates the junior team as its second team for eligibility purposes. You aren't tied just be being named to the squad, and you aren't tied if you play against an U20 team where the country has an A team (e.g. England). In Shingler's case, he became tied after playing against France U20 despite the fact that players who turned out in the identical fixture the previous year were not. When Wales and Scotland took the case to the IRB, a review determined that Shingler was tied to Wales under the rules but they also called for a review of those rules. In particular, it was unclear whether anyone from Wales had told Shingler that he would be committed to them by playing.

further to my earlier post - Michael Bent has now been named in the Ireland test squad. Surprise!! He arrived in Ireland on Sunday; need to know how many hours as this may beat the record held by Otago/NZ's Brendan Laney who arrived in Scotland and was named in their test squad on his second day there. MB has been a good man for us (Taranaki) he is the only forward to have played all 13 Taranaki games this season, injury-free and in the running for Taranaki Player of The Year. Born here, educated here, learned his rugby here. But struggled to get starts with Hurricanes this season. He may play for Leinster on Sunday v Ospreys, along with another new NZ import, Tasman captain midfielder Andrew Goodman who is on a 1yr contract for Leinster. Taranaki has a 'connection' with Leinster, their scrum coach is Greg Feek (ex Taranaki, Crusaders, ABs) he had a big role in recruiting MB.

and tonga beat france. ignore fiji, they were kind poop last season.

indeed, most of them were actually born in New Zealand so basically hey were representing their country of birth..why are they making a big deal out of this?...Its only Fijians that have represented other countries have actually been born in Fiji..the likes of tuqiri (Australia),, vidiri (NZ), rokocoko(NZ) and sivivatu (NZ) were all born in FIJI, so was Ilivasi Tabua (Australia), Manoa Vosawai (Italy)..they are the only country that should be complaining and even then the number of fijians playing for other countries is quite small..in other worlds, more people of samoan and tongan heritage have represented other nations than those with fijian heritage..

As I said in response to another article on this topic last week Wales has designated its Junior RWC squad as its second team as it doesn't play an A team. As a result Wales won a recent case against Scotland, who had selected a player who had represented Wales in the Junior (U20) RWC, in Scotland's senior training squad. The IRB ruled that Wales had all the rights to this player because he had played at the Junior RWC for Wales, in spite of him having a Scottish mother. If NZ had this system in place neither Mike Harris nor Sean Maitland would be able to represent the country of their grand-parents (Australia and Scotland respectively). It seems common sense for NZ and Australia to move to Junior RWC criteria as their A teams no longer play. In fact I believe the IRB should globally replace the A team criteria with the Junior RWC World Cup criteria to determine eligibility (in addition to the existing rule of not being able to play for a country if you had played Sevens for another country). If this Junior RWC rule were implemented, a player such as Henry Speight would still be tied to Fiji, which surely is the best outcome for world rugby. It shouln't stop him playing for an Australian Super side, however, as a tied Pacific Islands player - perhaps a qouta of two per side. If residency were also increased from 3 years to 5/6 years it would also stop the more awful examples of forum shopping - such as Ricki Flutey moving to England to represent England and the Lions after 3 years residence and then move to France to play in the Top 14.

I wonder if he considers himself an Irishman yet.......

"Michael Bent is only eligible through residency" I assume you mean through his Irish grandmother, given that he hasn't played a single game there yet.

A citizenship criterion makes no sense for the Home Unions. Welsh, English and Scottish all have the same passports. Northern Irish have British passports but they play for Ireland alongside team mates with Irish passports.

quote from the Ireland Independant: "Declan Kidney (Ireland coach) was also arranging for New Zealander Michael Bent to be fast-tracked into his squad before ever playing a game for Leinster. The tighthead prop, who joins the European champions from Taranaki this week, is one of seven players last night called up to the Ireland training squad." Shows you how much of a joke the IRB eligibility rules are. I guess you can walk into any team these days. Michael Bent is only eligible through residency . He is a product of the Taranaki development system and played for the Hurricanes in super rugby. Fair enough of smaller unions dont have the depth to compete which is why the IRB set up the current edibility rules but Ireland? They have 150,000 registered players and have teams that play in the Heineken cup and Rabo direct competitions and they dont have faith in thier own system. If this is how unions are bolstering then International rugby is certainly going backwards. I dont think you can blame the unions for this as the rules make it perfectly ok to use players from other countries. IRB need to man up and somewhat exclude the top tier nations from these eligibility rules so we dont get one tier 1 country 'poaching' another player from another tier 1 union.

Michael Bent is eligible for Ireland, has not been included in their named squad. He plays his first match for Leinster v Ospreys on Sunday. Same applies to Sean Maitland for Scotland - eligible but not in squad. Unaware of anyone in NZ claiming Mako Vunipola as a NZer - he may have been born there, but certainly not a 'product of the NZ system' he left at 7 yrs old, he's established in the England, U-18 and U-20s, England Saxons.

I disagree with this. Having players switch teams/country's will turn the world cup into a farce. You will have retired old boys who are well passed it, playing for a second tier nation for one last hurrah and at the same time preventing some young buck who fought his whole life to make the squad, from playing in his team. Do you really think giving a team like Fiji 1 or 2 retired all blacks will make them a more competitive team? Absolutely not. I'm also not sure the problem is as bad as people are making out. Are we seriously saying that teams like Fiji and Samoa and Tonga are struggling because all their players are overseas? Has it got nothing to do with lack of funds and poor facilities and poor support from the IRB? Are we forgetting that Samoa beat the Wallabies last year?

so in the upcoming AIs, there is a kiwi in the England team (Vianopola), a kiwi in the Irish squad (Michael Bent), another kiwi in the Scotland team, half the Samoan team are kiwi born players that went through the nz rugby system, plus the kiwi rejects in the current Wallaby team. Who is up for a milk shake?

Have to agree with you on that one, the pathway to greater representative honours is something to be admired in NZ, the multiculturalism is a credit to NZ, Australia across the channel is a different kettle of fish even though they are begining to be dominated by Pacific Islanders, it is great to see, what we have to change however is this, once a player eg of Tongan heritage ius no longer required by NZ, Aust etc they should immediately be allowewd if required by their home nation to represent.