Australia vs Japan has quietly become one of sport's great rivalries

I really can't explain the Sven issue any better than what I did, other than saying you really need to open your eyes to the fact some people may not like a non national coaching their national side ie Mickey Arthur coaching the Australian cricket team. Couple this with a Swede coaching the national team against the very same nation they are playing in the group stages of a World Cup and you get some animosity towards that very coach. Your points seem to chop and change and I find it very difficult to try and make a cohesive argument with someone like yourself for your logic to me is fundamentally flawed. I think we can agree to disagree on these points and as mentioned further up I think we have a different set of values, which dictates how we see rivalry and what makes it so.

You guys are so patronising - "dont understand football", "popular at the water-cooler". You don't know me and don't have the secret to knowing football. I have supported Valencia since 2000 and watch up to 4 La Liga games every week, plus at least one Serie A and Premier League game and a couple of A-League games (plus every World Cup and and most UCL and some Europa games). I watched Socceroos last night and am watching Argentina vs. Portugal right now. I don't care what you think, but there are other people out there in "straya" that watch as much if not more football than your wise selves, and understand football and it's history.

dude you said there was animosity towards him because he was swedish, so the dislike of him wasnt because he was sven the man but because he was a swedish man, how is that not saying there is animosity towards the swedes? without him being swedish there would be no animosity towards him. until he started stuffing up, but that then is hate for sven the man. im not saying you disagree with it, yet you are trying to tell me otherwise (which is you making a definitive statement yadayada), i said that a few comments above you made one point then in another comment made a contradictory point. and your second point is easily solved if you read what i said, i said majority of people not fans, i differentiated between people who support a team and join in on the rivalry but for the most part are apathetic and with the real fans who lead the majority of people. the majority are not just for show (there you go again 'try(ing) not to put words or even try(ing) to manipulate what someone like me says', they are just as important but they have no purpose without the real fans who actually care all the time pretty much. without the barmy army england cricket fans would not be as vocal would not be as loud, now most fans who go to the cricket especially but most sporting events are casual fans, the majority, who take part in the rivalry but do not actually care about it, they follow the lead of the real fans, the ones who hate. respect as well but hate and respect. as for the violence aspect i dont think violence has any part in any rivalry no matter how heated or how much hate you have for them, that is because you also have respect and whilst you hate them you still love them more than people who dont follow your sport.

Chris I'm going to give you the same bit of advice I gave a newbie writer on this forum a few weeks ago. Try not to pigeon hole yourself with definitive statements. Also try not to put words or even try to manipulate what someone like me says. If you have read half of what I have said in response to other posters here that think they know quite a lot, then you could have saved yourself this embarrassment. Firstly, I never said there was animosity towards Sweden from the English. I said there was animosity towards Sven because he was Swedish. I had the same animosity towards Robbie Deans being the Wallabies coach, but it does not mean for a second I have animosity towards Kiwis. Secondly, your entire second paragraph is regurgitating my entire point about the differences between political rivalry and sporting rivalry. I freely admit that this quite often involves pure hatred for other reasons, so I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to achieve here? Finally, you said you 'HAVE' to hate them. That my friend is a definitive statement and one I said I disagree with 100 per cent. Now go back and read it again, because there are two important parts to what has been said there. 1. I disagree with it, yet you are trying to tell me otherwise. 2. You have made a flat out statement that pigeon holes yourself and consequently has resulted in your contradicting yourself. How? "im not talking about the majority of people, the majority are apathetic, its the real fans who make the rivalry and that requires hate" Now your original statement was fine, as after all it is your opinion as to what makes up a rivalry and who am I to dispute this. However, your later statement there has now gone from a definitive statement to one that is far more broad and vague. My own words have managed to manipulate you somewhat, bringing into question what you truly believe. More importantly though - it has resulted in bringing out possibly your true colours, much like Fuss did earlier up, which I will elaborate on further in a minute. You are now saying that it's the minority of fans that make up the 'REAL' fans and it is these very people who make the rivalry. The rest of us are just for show I'm guessing in your opinion? You see this comment from Fuzz is also very interesting: "England’s Barmy Army vs Australia’s Fanatics … that’s a rivalry to send the riot police to sleep." Now he also tried to manipulate the situation, but unfortunately it really didn't stick. I wasn't going to mention this, but it has now become quite pertinent to the conversation, which will become apparent when I summarise things. What I find interesting in those comments is that Fuzz (like yourself) appear to believe rivalry stems from more than just football. Now I agree with this, just not definitively, as I believe rivalry can indeed develop purely based on the sport, which is why I outlined many of the countries in the top bracket. The interesting part of Fuzz's comment though is how this rivalry would send the 'riot police to sleep'' It's almost like he is alluding to this being a poor rivalry because it is unlikely violence will result, thus the riot police falling asleep. It would appear that many believe the most powerful rivalries in any sport 'MUST' have violence for it to be great. If not then it is nothing more than a simple 'friendly' rivalry. Now again I'm not disagreeing with this premises in certain circumstances, but rather as an absolute must for a rivalry to exist. It's fascinating what you can find out about someones psych from but a few words. Let me know if you need any clarification Chris.

Chris I really have no idea what you are talking about, so trying to explain the definition any further to you is pointless. And in answer to your question about Manu and Liverpool - yes - if Liverpool kept losing for a long enough period then the rivalry would start to diminish significantly. I even alluded to this when it comes to the All Blacks vs Wallabies rivalry. You seem to think for some strange reason you can build a rivalry, yet one can't diminish. I'm sorry, but we are worlds apart in our logic and the way we see and interpret things - that is clear.

im not talking about the majority of people, the majority are apathetic, its the real fans who make the rivalry and that requires hate. respect but hate as well. you even agreed with me, 7 of you examples above talked of hate or genocide which feel is the same here. so either you agree or you have to remove england v sweden as you said there was animosity there..., 'England vs Germany: This primarily is flat out political with a lot of hatred...Croatia vs Serbia: Yeah, I think a few acts of genocide have really made for a mixed grill between these two in anything...Egypt vs Algeria: Okay, I think this one speaks for itself…Turkey vs Greece: Are they even allowed to play each other unless it’s on neutral turf or half the crowd are armed security...Germany vs Holland: Bitter hatred between two superb footballing nations with proud histories...England vs Australia: The Ashes has always been the convicts vs the POMS. The body line series typifies this...Inda vs Pakistan: Two nuclear powers slogging it out over 5-days in test cricket. Neither one I would trust with a water pistol, let alone a bomb' and how can you 100% disagree with what i said then backtrack a sentence later and say 'Of course pure hatred towards another nation can add to it, but not always' hatred is required, it needs respect for a proper rivalry but hatred has to be in their.

you chose one definition of 'rivalry' and then chose one definition of the word 'comparable'. thats really bad man come on, by that definition the england v australia in cricket wasnt a rivalry in the early 1980s nor thru all of 1990, the state of origin for the last few years has not been a rivalry either. as someone below alluded to you dont need equality for a rivalry, competition against each other and wanting to beat the other is what makes a rivalry. no one who supports a team would change their mind about that team based on their history against their rival. does this mean you dont think liverpool fc and manchester united saw each other as rivals for most of the last 20 years? cause i am a united fan and i have a few liverpool fans and we do and did see each others as rivals. alot.

australia has a class system, every country does and sports is not a great leveler. rich countries have an insane advantage in swimming especially but pretty much every other sport that requires more than a ball to play. and poorer countries spend money on well food and electricty and stopping their citizens being killed/ killing their citizens. its only rich countries that even think of spending real money on sports. dont get me wrong i love sports but its not a great leveler.

ABC TV on Tuesday night at 9:00pm AEDT will broadcast live Japan vs Socceroos.

Oh youse lefties and your abbott bashing ;) Become a statist basher like me and at least be consistent across the dumbocratic politicreep spectrum :)

"Surely if Angie doesn’t at least get a draw then he will be replaced before he causes more humiliation at the Asian Cup. " You really are clueless about the football landscape in Australia.

im from adelaide (afl heartland), i support only Port Power and A. United. I honestly had no idea that essendon & hawthorn had such a "rivalry", its news to me.

From my personal point of view there are two,Japan and Uruguay. The Japan rivalry has become a bit of an instant classic for both nations (not sure about world scale though) because it has delivered monumental sporting moments for both, both nations have suffered equal amounts of heartbreak and elation at the hands of each other. A couple of more semi final and final clashes in the Asian Cup and fingers crossed a meeting deep into a World Cup and the rivalry should then be able to claim a place in footballs great fixtures. Now Uruguay probably slightly tips it for me, i make no apologies for saying i utterly despise them and beating them means more to me than a victory against Japan. I read a post above somewhere that there needs to be a certain amount of games played between two nations but i disagree, the stakes don't get much higher than the four games the nations played against each in 01 and 05. I imagine the sight of Aloisi waving his jersey around his head is etched in their brains also and they are itching to play us again in a competitive fixture.

Good piece. Whilst I will be watching the Socceroos this evening I expect a better performance than their recent dross. Surely if Angie doesn't at least get a draw then he will be replaced before he causes more humiliation at the Asian Cup. As for a rivalry, it is building. Give it a century and it might reach the level of the Ashes!!!

No idea. I imagine a local promoter put together the money and made it happen. Wouldn't be surprised if he/she loses a lot of money on it. Less than half the tickets have been sold. The people of Manchester would see many of the players on feature play competitive games every week. England v Scotland, albeit on tv for most, would be enough reason to stay home that night even if two of the all time greats are running around down the road.

"People who have been subjugated will always retain a higher level of intense hatred than the oppressors." That quite possibly is the first thing we have ever agreed upon.

@AZ For me, the tension in the stands & on the pitch - albeit without any illegal activity - is the very essence of the best sporting rivalries. Why on earth is Argentina v Portugal being played at Old Trafford. Is there a big Argentinean & Portuguese diaspora in Manchester? @Rick I'm sure the rivalry is stronger from the Scottish side. People who have been subjugated will always retain a higher level of intense hatred than the oppressors. The fact the match is at Celtic Park adds a further element of hatred for the English.

My apologies for fuxing that up then. I am going to 110 per cent disagree with you on the rivalry though (surprise surprise hey :) ). Let me indulge you with a little comedy, as I think this typifies the Scotland vs England rivalry (not just in football) Me and a few mates were in the Soho Comedy club in London one night (great place if you are ever in London www.sohocomedy.com/) Now one of the British comedians starting banging on about how when England play against anyone in any sport, the Scottish ALWAYS support the other team. Now after a few minutes of general football humour he delivered one of the funniest lines I have heard that left the entire audience (including many Scots) in stitches. "you know what, when you Scots are playing football...we would like to think we would support you, but we just don't know when you are playing". Fecking great and it represents the feeling of most English I would say when it comes to the Scots. There is no duel rivalry between the two countries - I would say the Scots hate the English and the English really don't think that much of the Scots full stop. It's as simple as that, as the Scottish beating the English in football would be more of an embarrassment to the English and for this very reason it is not a true rivalry. I do appreciate what you are saying and the security is a big issue. I haven't read the entirety of the article you linked, but I would imagine part of this may be due to some unhappy Scots who voted for independence in the referendum recently. I'm only guessing there, but it would make sense to me.

I would hope that in this day and age a rivalry no longer draws respect and value from the level of violence it inspires. It'll be a great spectacle if the two sets of fans provide a strong passionate atmosphere. Does this clash with the Argentina v Portugal match at Old Trafford? That might explain the poor ticket sales.