Where do our rugby players come from?

By Train Without A Station / Roar Guru

Frequent readers will know that I have generally been pushing a strong anti-club line recently in regards to Australian rugby.

Many people’s strong support of the clubs position in the game is due to emotional attachment, not rational reasoning.

I understand a club rugby system to be both beneficial and critical. What I disagree with is the view that many attempt to portray, that the club rugby system is turning random mugs they pick up off the streets into professional players.

While no matter what happens, a club rugby system will be required, one that attempts to wield less power over the code in Australia is in the best interests of the game.

I no longer believe this development is the case. With the strengthened pathways that have developed over professionalism, the improvement in players is occurring due to academy programs with elite training programs.

Sometimes these players may continue to ply their trade in club rugby, but by this point they are putting back into the club than they are taking out. The clubs are receiving professional athletes who are being subsidised for them.

Because of the vocal support of the club system – and many that say that’s where all our players come from – I wanted to look closer and see where exactly our players did come from.

So to do this I have taken the 163 players who are published as contracted with their details available and researched their backgrounds.

Obviously this information is hard to come by and in some cases assumptions need to be made. But my research and conclusion has been based on the premise, that if a player was part of age group representative programs for multiple years from school level, and commenced a contract within 12 months of their time with that program, they were not a product of the club system, they were a product of the representative pathways.

Their time in club rugby has generally been playing colts in between representative fixtures.

Now if a player had not been part of these at all, or had been, and then spent more than a season playing at club level before commencing a contract, it’s my view that the club system has helped them develop from being unable to obtain a contract to becoming a professional.

Looking at these 163 players, 34 are immediately taken out of the equation as they have been developed in other countries or through NRL systems. 10 of these are Rebels, 5 Reds, 3 Waratahs, 5 Brumbies and 11 from the Force.

Of the remaining 129 players, 32 of these would be considered to be developed by Shute Shield. These contain a number of different examples.

From Luke Burgess and Chris Alcock, who were not part of national representative programs, to players like Mitch Inman and who has represented Australia at Under 20 level or equivalent (prior to 2008 there was Under 19s and Under 21s) and 7s yet never was contracted until two years after Under 20s.

Dave McDuling is another example who represented Australia at Schoolboy level, Under 20s and took another three years beyond that to progress to being contracted.

The notable players (Wallabies) on this list are as follows.

Luke Burgess
Radike Samo
Laurie Weeks
Peter Betham
David Dennis
Bernard Foley
Stephen Hoiles
Wycliff Palu
Paddy Ryan
Will Skelton
Scott Fardy
Josh Mann-Rea

Now if we look at the Hospitals Cup in isolation that gives us nine further players. The notable from these nine are:

Scott Higginbotham
Greg Holmes
Jesse Mogg

Scott Higginbotham is a good example of the development of the Hospitals Cup. He didn’t play first XV at school and therefore wasn’t a part of schoolboy representative programs. After school he developed, while playing for Wests into a professional player.

There are another six players to have progressed from other club rugby ranks. Most notably Ben Alexander and Sam Carter.

So this tells us that 47 of 129 locally-bred players are coming from club rugby in 2015. 30 of these 47 players were born before 1990 (Over 25), which tells us that the trend is for this to potentially decline.

This make sense as the representative programs are slowly being improved over time, to identify and develop talent. There is also the possibility that these players are still yet to develop though.

But when you consider this to the players that have left Australian shores, and would have been part of the club rugby system had I conducted this in 2010, it appears to be slowly changing.

Then there’s the remaining 82 active, Australian-raised players as part of representative development pathways and schoolboy rugby programs.

25 of these 82 players did not play Australian schoolboys, though were a part of either state or combined schoolboy sides.

In total, 11 of these 82 players did not play Australian Under 20s. But then, there is a reason for this. Lolo Fakaosilea and Campbell Magnay from the Reds have not, but they played Australian Schoolboys in 2013. They will likely play in 2015.

Rory Walton and Zack Holmes did not. They did however play NSW Country 20s, and ACT Under 20s and then sign contracts before playing senior rugby while being part of a professional set up.

Nick Phipps and James O’Connor did not, because they were playing Australian 7s, and in O’Connpr’s case, Australian 7s, Super Rugby and Wallabies the years they were eligible.

Steve Mafi was already part of the Waratahs Academy and then went overseas, Nick Cummins was playing Australian 7s, Beau Robinson was playing Super Rugby and replacing an injured Phil Waugh, while Robbie Abel was already part of the Western Force set up and Adam Coleman, while playing for Parramatta was already a part of state and national academies.

My argument comes down to the fact that 82 of the 129 Australian raised players in the Super Rugby squads have come through major development pathways.

Schoolboy rugby, age-level representative rugby programs and state and national level and major academies. If they have spent any time playing club rugby prior to their debut, it’s been while they were already contracted and training in elite programs with the franchises of the national set ups.

In this cases, it’s the clubs who have opportunistically picked up these players, but then claim they were a major part of their development, when really being in an elite training environment has been the major factor.

The club program worked perfectly as the major development pathway when the game was amateur, but again that was assisted with Wallabies and Wallaby aspirants being part of the AIS, essentially training as professionals before professionalism.

It has now though, developed to a stage that without the clubs, this development would still occur. The players would still be playing in local competitions against men until they got to the level to debut, but their growth as players is coming from the academies, state and national representative teams now.

Now players are coming through the increasing representative programs and Junior Gold Cup, and will develop for Super Rugby level primarily through the NRC. I’d estimate within three years, no players will be selected for the Australian under-20s team outside of the NRC.

As this happens, club rugby will be a further less influential part of the development program and these players likely will be adding more than they will be taking away from the club.

It’s time to understand that amateur clubs are no longer the cornerstone of successful professional rugby that they once were.

I love the tradition and the positives that they bring to the game. But I loathe their self-interest and attempts to maintain relevance at the game’s expense as a whole.

The Crowd Says:

2017-06-22T07:40:57+00:00

chris webb

Guest


Not sure what the analysis tells us but two points - there is no Rugby without Club Rugby - 25 years ago it was possible to hold down a job and get to training 2 or 3 times a week by 6 pm - cannot be done today - a Club Rugby guy who works seriously cannot progress to the next level - a student maybe.

2016-02-19T01:59:05+00:00

Ken

Roar Rookie


Just read this, a year late admittedly. Good robust discussion and I understand a lot more than I did. Thanks to TWAS for the resources he spent starting and responding in the discussion

2015-01-29T06:34:19+00:00

sheek

Roar Guru


Ironically TWAS, et al, I would suggest Argentina have a better domestic structure than Australia. Their problem is a need to flesh out their systems with greater quality. They have BOTH a national provincial comp (Campeonato Argentino) & a national club comp (national de clubes). That ought to put us to shame!

2015-01-29T06:20:42+00:00

sheek

Roar Guru


TWAS, Great article. While we haven't always agreed, you are a breath of fresh air to The Roar. At it's best, The Roar is about exchanging ideas & learning from each other.

AUTHOR

2015-01-25T06:59:45+00:00

Train Without A Station

Roar Guru


That may be true Bill. But still Neville, the example I noted would not have played any club rugby, so was not missed by Under 17 Junior Gold. He wasn't there. Scott Higginbotham played 3rd XV at school and wasn't taking it seriously. Again not missed, not there.

2015-01-24T23:03:45+00:00

Mark Bryson

Guest


TWAS good article. I would like to take four players off of developed by clubs. Luke Burgess signed by Brumbies in 2004 third string to Gregan and Henjak. One season in Colts and Aus U21 in 2004. Radike Samo unsure of status as Fiji U19 and signed with Brumbies in 2000 and was fringe Brumbies until overnight success in 2004 Sam Carter and Ben Alexander part of Brumbies Academy prior to signing. There they played Shute Shield with full time training in wider Brumbies environment.

2015-01-23T17:39:44+00:00

AndyS

Guest


For mine, it is pretty simple...every cent spent by the clubs (premier or otherwise) on luring players is money not being spent on the grassroot levels below. If the players as a collective disagree, then there should be specific funding provided for the purpose out of the agreed player share of Gross Player Revenue. Frankly, the same should be a funding source for salaries paid to NRC players.

2015-01-23T17:06:05+00:00

Bakkies

Guest


I am involved in club politics and I have seen others gone down the tube for those reasons. The IRFU explained in their paper that they want club rugby to be amateur. Doesn't matter if A level and academy players play in the AIL. These clubs can't simply become pro without the revenue and funding which they mentioned and it doesn't help the competition. Clubs are now be fully audited sure there is fudging and brown envelopes going around but it comes back and bite them eventually. People were claiming cars and other expenses from their club. That had to be nipped in the bud. Rugby commitees and alickadoos are a nightmare. Look in to histories of some clubs even before the pro era. Back then clubs went under, had to restart again or merged.

2015-01-23T15:37:56+00:00

Wardad

Guest


Where do our rugby players come from ? One would presume like wee Kiwi rugby tykes from their mums ......in more ways than one .No mum supporting ém no future Wallabies or ABs .... Rugby forum joke.

2015-01-23T08:05:57+00:00

Rebel

Guest


I've already stated the reasons why it can't go fully amateur, it would be detrimental to the playing stocks of a whole level. Also it is clubs responsibility to live within their means. I have been involved when a club has overspent and the lean years when they have tried to recover. I agree it is not fun. However we have come out more professional due to the experience. You don't make a comp amateur just because some can't manage themselves. I don't expect the ARU to throw money away, but when there are expectations on clubs to provide a service, they should not be totally abandoned. Once you have been involved in the running of a club you will realize what is involved on so many levels and that it is not a one way street. In saying this as the NRC grows then the dependence on premier rugby will not be as great.

2015-01-23T07:17:00+00:00

MAJB

Guest


Sorry, I am having trouble typing, as I am laughing so much

2015-01-23T06:55:27+00:00

Bakkies

Guest


By not making them amateur you are sending those clubs further down the blackhole. The more they try and spend to keep up with up the Joneses there is a real risk one of the big names could go under. The ARU doesn't have a bottom less pit to be throwing at those clubs that's why they asked consortiums to tender for the NRC rather than ask the clubs to cough up.

2015-01-23T06:47:51+00:00

Bakkies

Guest


MAJB then why did you bring up the topic in the first place?

2015-01-23T04:09:57+00:00

Beaujolais

Guest


Bakkies, I uhh do not know what you are talking about? I 'appen to be completely Fraunch! I also enjoy uhh une petite Beaujolais Nouveau togedder wid mes amis in Novembre, it is not so 'orrible... It is, how do you say, le grand amusement, but one must always be carefoool de next day, no?

2015-01-23T03:58:15+00:00

RobC

Roar Guru


Im with MAJB. Seriously.

2015-01-23T03:47:17+00:00

MAJB

Guest


Baks take it with a grain of salt. Life to short to that serious.

2015-01-23T02:53:07+00:00

AndyS

Guest


I don't know why it is that everyone focuses on Jake Ball's cricket, other than perhaps to spare a particular Q'ld coach's blushes. Yeah he played cricket, but everyone seems to skim over the fact that he was also playing rugby and training with the Force squad. Not deemed worthy of a contract by their coach at the time though...

2015-01-23T02:18:21+00:00

Rebel

Guest


TWAS, we'll researched article, however it is not all about development, but also sustaining a level of competitiveness. A lot of fringe Super players are parked in Shute Shield ready to be called up when required. Yes a lot of players are identified and developed earlier, but premier clubs maintain the next level. If not for them more of this level of player will be lost to league or overseas. I have seen it with guys taking the opportunity to earn a few hundred a week or fringe first graders picking up semi professional contracts overseas. The NRC may now take over this role, however before it was left up to premier clubs. I know for sure that Radike Samo was playing club rugby before McKenzie picked him up at the reds, as did Sita Timani and Ita Vea. Again, not necessarily developed, but maintained. These type of players would not hang around for nothing. Also, it may not be a huge amount, but some premier sides do put back into their juniors developments where possible. It is a tight business running a premier club with limited income streams and expectations of them from Super sides, NRC sides and other parties. It is a bit unfair to suggest they don't deserve assistance themselves. It is a crucial level of Australian rugby, and at this stage while the NRC is still in its infancy, it would be detrimental to the development of Australian rugby to make it an amateur comp. A good article and correct about development but don't forget about everything else these clubs do.

2015-01-23T01:51:06+00:00

Bakkies

Guest


and there is a poster on here called Beaujolais. Do you think he is French? Well I don't.

2015-01-23T01:46:33+00:00

Beaujolais

Guest


If the whole point of having a representative system is to gather the most promising youth players, then how can the clubs be accused of not producing enough professional players, when the most promising players have already been shepherded into the other system? Of course it's great that the most promising players get the opportunity to play games with other promising players and against challenging opposition, but it appears to be a illogical proposition to then turn around and tell the clubs that they're not producing players that they don't have! Mind you, it also appears that this whole issue is symptomatic of a festuring failure of mid-level rugby governance. These systems (and the all the people, clubs, and administrators involved) should all be working together to identify and develop talent.

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