Quade Cooper to the Waratahs? Reports say it's a possibility

TWAS, you just haven't responded to my points. Here is the first one again: "Even if all that were correct, so what? The most you can make out of it is that his potential wasn’t recognised early. Its well known that some players’ potential is identified earlier than others, and it doesn’t necessarily correlate to how well they do overall." The second point essentially remains the same - trying to argue that Foley's experience is equivalent to Cooper's fails because he was out of professional 15s rugby for 2 years. Of course it was because he wasn't identified as early as Cooper - that can be for a whole host of reasons, but fundamentally its irrelevant anyway.

Apologies for my misunderstanding, TWAS.

"(see the first 50 of waratahs v reds until lance came on)" You need to check your facts before making assertions Combesy. Lance came on in the 66th minute, just after TPN was replaced. By that time the Tahs had already scored TWO tries, and the third followed shortly thereafter without influence from Lance. But why let facts get in the way of a fun theory? "The first try scored in the second half was nearly immediately after lance came on and slotted into first receiver, so foley could play out one and use the dual attacking lines." Nice fantasy. Two tries were scored before Lance came on the field, and he had no effect on the third a couple of minutes later. Furthermore the Tahs alternated 10 and 12 at first receiver both before and after Lance came on. The problem they had earlier was not "lack of a second play maker" but unfamiliarity with players who are quite unlike KB. But they sorted this out in the second half, and it had nothing to do with Lance. "I sighted [sic] vey clearly the adjustment in the waratah’s play when Jono lance came on." And you cited it with a complete disregard for the facts. Somehow you shifted two tries (three tries really) forward in time!

Wow, you just don't feel the need for people do you?

Cool the jets Mike. It was a direct response to Not Bothered (NB) when he said this: "He often fails to keep pressure on opposition teams and releases it by placing pressure on his own team by either making errors or making low % plays". To say that he clearly ignores the fact that Cooper has a low error rate.

I wasn't "ignoring" anything. You like to cite stats when they suit your argument and don't want to go behind them, and when they don't suit your argument you like to quietly ignore them. So forgive me if I find your views on Foley entirely unconvincing! He does the job he is required to do and does it well, and my points made above stand. I expect he will remain the first-choice fly half for the Wallabies and so he should.

I don't think a nail can get hit on the head any harder than that.

You make a good point Jez, though I think Phipps passing has been unfairly criticized the past 2 years. Whilst not precise, he now passes in front of the man, meaning the player merely needs to deviate his run, but still takes the ball going forward. But there won't be many stats on Foley's errors that don't include Phipps passing too him. How many games has he played with a different halfback for the Wallabies? Maybe 3.

Mike, genia and slipper both said something along the lines of "having quade on the field makes everyone else feel settled. He knows exactly what he's doing and he really drives the team around the park" Not once have I heard that being said about foley. "You obviously haven’t watched any Tahs games or any Wallabies games." I sighted vey clearly the adjustment in the waratah's play when Jono lance came on. You are just deflecting from actually providing an example of how foley shows good game management and how he doesn't need the dual playmaker. "Of course the match was won in the forwards, but that doesn’t mean that comment can’t be made about the fly halves. Quade got quite a bit of clear ball and front foot ball in the first half and couldn’t really do anything with it – not one of his better matches." The Reds never got front foot ball. The waratahs defence was too aggressive and strong for the Reds to get front foot ball. Just having possession isn't the same as having front foot ball. "Rubbish. Foley is required by his coach’s game plan to play very close to the advantage line. His error rate is fine for the high pressure game he plays" That's a load of BS and by far the biggest cop out I've heard. As train points out the stats say otherwise, it's your interpretation or lack thereof of foley's game and skills that chooses too ignore them. You have basically stereotyped in your mind cooper as erratic and foley as safe which couldn't be further from the truth "That’s a new one on me – his games for the Wallabies do not show that, rather they show a bit of weakness in that precise area." I suggest you go back and watch the wallabies match vs england on last year EOYT. take note at the lack of direction and penetration the wallabies are getting with foley 'conducting' the starting pack. Then watch when cooper comes on with the reserves, you will notice more direction in the team a lift in tempo and more penetration of the gain line.

Combesy, I'm a fan of both players and lean towards Quade as the first choice due to his greater passing ability. Foley has better running these days but that is of greater value at the end of a match when opposition tire. The one comment I wanted to chip in was on Foley's errors. Have you used Super Rugby to call that stat out? Receiving Phipps's scatter gun service is probably a contributing factor if you are.

With Naiyaravoro likely leaving and Betham going as well then he is likely in the team - I take your point but the above was a pretty speculative exercise adding Quade and Big T to the mix. Also Foley will miss part of the year in Japan so there is definitely space in our backs to give him a run. Not to mention that AAC's departure likely sees Horne return to the centres and open up another wing spot. If Izzy stays at the back then both wings are up for contention.

Yep. I'm sick of the NSW conspiracy theories on ARU contracts. The Waratahs get the bulk because NSW produces the bulk of Australian rugby players so therefore a higher number of Wallabies are from Sydney. Subsequently, they want to live in their home town. As their ARU top up is the same wherever they play in Australia, they generally choose Sydney, their home town. Now if the Waratahs had a number of players with no ties to Sydney who were choosing to go to Sydney that would make sense. But they don't. look at their starting line up and their origin Robinson - Sydney TPN - Sydney Kepu - Sydney/Auckland Will Skelton - Sydney/Auckland Dave Dennis - Sydney Jacques Potgeiter - Marquee Hooper - Sydney Palu - Sydney Phipps - Sydney Foley- Sydney Betham - Sydney Beale - Sydney AAC - Central Coast Horne - Sydney Folau - Sydney then Brisbane

It's relevant because being selected for 7's does not mean they are identified as a future Wallaby. If they are overlooked for Super Rugby it shows they are not considered to be capable at that time. And Mike. He was playing 15's rugby. He played club rugby as well. He played 7s with James Stannard who was able to progress to 15s at the same time. And Not Bothered I can't comment on every year, but here is the years I do know: 2008 Ben Batger William Bishop Caleb Brown* Tim Cornforth Blair Conner* Ross Duncan Dane Haylett Petty* Scott Higginbotham* Matt Hodgson* Rob Horne* Luke Inman Mitch Inman* Ed Jenkins Danny Kroll Luke Johnson James Lew Shawn Mackay* Alfi Mafi* Pat McCutcheon* Kacey Mitchell Damon Murphy James O'Conner* Peter Owens Ant Sauer Junior Sovoala Afusipa Taumoepau Andrew Walker* Tim Walsh Andrew Wiles Tim Wright 12 of the 30 played Super Rugby 2009 Ed Jenkins Will Brock Henry Vanderglas* Ben Coridas* Luke Morahan* Afusipa Taumoepau Brian Sefania Shaun Foley Richard Kingi* Damon Murphy Will Bishop Jono Jenkins* Dane Haylett-Petty* Ben McCalman* Dom Shipperly* Drumayne Dayberg-Muir Ben Mowen* Aiden Toua Stanley Hokafonu Peter Betham* Pat McCutcheon* Tim Walsh James Stannard* Francis Fanifo* Clinton Sills That's 14 of 25. The only year that seems to have a high representation of players who have found success in 15s is 2010 when a number of players returned to the set up for the Commonwealth Games.

NB you can't ignore Foley's error rate and say, "oh it's fine, that's how the coach wants him to play". He makes a lot of errors. Plain and simple. In 5 games Quade Cooper made 2 handling errors. That's less than 0.5 per game. In 17 games Foley has made 32. That's nearing 2 per game. For the record Cooper missed 4 of 32 tackle attempts at less than 1 per game (87%), whilst Foley was 24 of 86 attempts at near 1.5 (72%) per game. Statistically he makes significantly more errors. It cannot be ignored as saying, oh that's fine they play high risk. The Reds played high risk for years and it wasn't acceptable. The line was Cooper needed to adjust his play. He has. He now makes very few errors yet people won't accept what the statistics clearly show.

"Close to 50% of 7s players don’t make it to Super Rugby. Players do not play 7s if they can get a super rugby contract. Plenty come from the 7s system to Super Rugby." Even if all that were correct, so what? The most you can make out of it is that his potential wasn't recognised early. Its well known that some players' potential is identified earlier than others, and it doesn't necessarily correlate to how well they do overall. But these points do cut down your argument that Foley has had as much time as Quade to realise his potential - it doesn't matter whether he was playing 7s or tiddlywinks, the point is that he wasn't playing 15s rugby. Mind you, i am not sure how relevant this is anyway. Foley plays in a different way to Quade, and his team plays a different game plan.

"how much are the tahs going to pay him, and all the rest of the line up they have?" Which is exactly what the NSW coach-elect has said, so don't worry. Tahs have politely made it clear that they will not be taking Quade "Is there a salary cap only for the other teams? ARU top ups only for tahs players?" The usual conspiracy theory. ARU top ups don't change if the player changes S15 sides.

“NB, many of cooper’s team mates come out prior to his return and told of how he managers he team and drives them around the park.” Well, several players said they would be glad to have him back, and a couple made comments like this - and they said no more than what a fly half is supposed to do anyway. Let’s not get carried away. No-one has come out and made public statements about Foley because there is no need – he clearly has the respect of his coaches and team mates. “How is foley known for his game management?” You obviously haven’t watched any Tahs games or any Wallabies games. “He requires a dual playmaker to be effective.” No he doesn’t. This is one of the incompetent clichés doing the rounds at the moment. Never cited with any evidence of course, because there isn’t any. “Just kicking and shovelling the ball isn’t game management. Provide examples” Nobody suggested it was; and since you provide no examples yourself, why demand them from others? “EJ you are being disingenuous. You know very well the match had little to do with either 10’s. The match was won in the forwards.” Of course the match was won in the forwards, but that doesn’t mean that comment can’t be made about the fly halves. Quade got quite a bit of clear ball and front foot ball in the first half and couldn’t really do anything with it – not one of his better matches. “Foley is actually the one with the higher error rate and turns over possession easily through poor hands.” Rubbish. Foley is required by his coach’s game plan to play very close to the advantage line. His error rate is fine for the high pressure game he plays. “When waratah’s game plan isn’t successful he struggles to adapt.” That comment applies even more to Quade. “cooper is widely known for his ability to execute a coaching structure and adapt to he opposions game plan.” That’s a new one on me – his games for the Wallabies do not show that, rather they show a bit of weakness in that precise area.

Fair point. That would make it easier for me, I'm already a Manly fan. If I was an AFL fan too I may as well support Collingwood and be hated nationally.

Combesy: I'm biased, but I think that's the best explanation of the difference between QC and BF that I have seen anywhere, fans and pros alike.

Would you not just rename the Tahs something suitable to the love you feel, like Manly-Bankstown?