The bye rounds are a time for reflection. Last week we put together our respective All-Australian sides, and now it’s time to review The Roar Top 50, which Ryan and Rose put together at the start of the year with Mick Cowley, Sarah Olle, and regular commenter TomC.
Who has disappointed you the most so far?
RYAN: Is it too soon to say Gary Ablett Jr (ranked 1)?
That’s a little unfair, but of those who’ve been regulars, it’s been some of the old stagers on our list: Brent Harvey (28), Steve Johnson (29) and Brendon Goddard (43). Hayden Ballantyne (34), who’s running at less than a goal a game, would be up there as well.
ROSE: We can give Gary a pass, but all eyes will be on him in his return this weekend. Those names you mentioned are fair enough, and we can add to that the likes of Bryce Gibbs (21) and Ryan Griffen (22). I’ll put my hand up for those two, I had them both higher than anyone else.
Has Jarryd Roughead proven worthy of the No. 9 spot we gave him?
RYAN: Well, he’s second on the goal kicking list at the Hawks, who are the second best offence in the league, so I guess he’s going alright. I get the feeling Roughead is being turned into a midfield utility player rather than a pure forward: he’s also in Hawthorn’s top five for clearances (fifth, 3.3 per game) and contested possessions (third, 9.1 per game). He’s providing value, but perhaps in a different way than he has previously.
ROSE: Roughead has been used a lot differently this season, but I’ve watched a number of Hawthorn games where he’s been a non-event. In his last four matches he’s averaging 16 touches, four marks and less than a goal a game. That’s not top-10 material in anyone’s language.
RYAN: On Gibbs, he’s still a top-20 player in the league; don’t be too harsh on yourself. One glaring omission from our top 50 is Josh J Kennedy from the West Coast Eagles. Has he become the best key forward in the game?
ROSE: Ouch, we missed the dominant Coleman medal leader; he’s been an irresistible force. Speaking of those we missed, a few ruckman come to mind – Todd Goldstein, Shane Mumford and Nic Naitanui, who is in hot form right now. Would any of those be worth inclusions if we did another list?
RYAN: Goldstein is a force of nature, but does he create that much more value than someone like a Max Gawn when all said and done?
I was out on Nic Nat coming into the season, thinking his recent deal with the Eagles was going to be an albatross. Turns out his niggles must have been quite limiting over the past couple of years. We got it broadly right on the ruck front, although perhaps Sam Jacobs (31) was rated a little high.
And what the hell has happened to Nick Malceski (49)? Has the move from top-four Sydney to bottom-four Gold Coast exposed him as a ‘flattered by the scheme’ guy?
ROSE: We might as well throw Sarah under the bus on Malceski. Four of us didn’t have him in the top 50, but her ranking of 10 saw him make the cut. The rest of us must have had reservations, but even still his fall from grace has been astounding.
Who have we underrated of those who actually made the top 50? Paddy Dangerfield (11) and *cough, cough* Robbie Gray (12) should be pushed higher, and perhaps Dustin Martin (27). Chad Wingard (40) is also back to his best, gathering a lot more football after a lean 2014.
RYAN: I’ve already come clean on Gray – my oversight of his abilities and influence was almost as bad as Melbourne’s handling of the last 41 seconds against the Saints. But I had Martin at number 10 personally, and after his last five weeks I’m very comfortable with that call. The guy is a genius with the ball – almost like he’s got psychic powers to just make it go places he wants it to go.
Dangerfield deserves a higher spot, although his next 10 weeks will be all the more fascinating by Adelaide’s recent run of re-signings (and, by the way, very public parading of said re-signings). I had The Chad at number 27, so again feel comfortable that we underrated him as a collective.
Looking at our top 10 below, Dangerfield deserves a spot there, so who do you think comes out? And is there a change in the order? (I suspect there may be at the top.)
ROSE: Joel Selwood (5) still has enough credits in the bank to be worthy of a place. Josh Kennedy (6) from the Swans is down in every area, Travis Boak (8) isn’t being as influential on the outside, Roughead we’ve spoken about, and Dyson Heppell (10) should never have been that high to begin with. I had him at 28 in my rankings, while you had him as high as 6. Is that one you’d like to revisit, or has he lived up to your expectations? Perhaps if he stopped the ridiculous third-man up business, he’d have more impact.
RYAN: I don’t think anyone at Essendon is worthy of a top 10 place right now. Something smells funky at Windy Hill. Heppell is still a top-10 player in the league, but his performances in the first few months of the year would see him slide out.
On Selwood, do you think that’s an issue with the players he has around him now? When the opposition had a whole midfield of superstars to contend with, he could shake the tag a little easier. Now, all of the opposition’s attention goes to Selwood. The Cats are dead last in clearances and contested possessions, despite Selwood sitting seventh in the league’s clearances table and 12th for contested possessions.
ROSE: Selwood’s been carrying the Cats midfield for a few years, and been the only player the opposition targets, so I’m not giving him that excuse. He’s just having a shocker, playing frustrated and angry, not covering the ground enough defensively, and making bad decisions when he does win the ball. He averaged 27 touches a game across his first six this year, but is only averaging 19 a match over the last six, which is frankly pathetic for a man of his standing in the game. I’d like to see him laying double-figure tackles to make up for it, but he hasn’t reached that mark once this year. Perhaps he’s carrying something.
RYAN: What about Lance Franklin (3)? I had him as my centre half forward in our All Australian column – despite his individual output being a touch lower than last year. Is he still a top-five player?
ROSE: Yeah, Buddy holds his place there comfortably, along with Scott Pendlebury (4) and Nat Fyfe (2) obviously. Speaking of the Swans, did you know that not one of us five panellists had Dan Hannebery in their top 50? That will change come season’s end.
RYAN: Not even in the top 50? Wow. That’s a huge oversight on our collective behalf. I’d have him comfortably inside the top 30 if we were doing this exercise from scratch. His standing in the Swans midfield has improved, largely because of the slight dip we’ve witnessed in other stalwarts like Josh Kennedy and Luke Parker.
We’ve seen 12 rising stars nominated so far this year, including Jesse Hogan and Angus Brayshaw from Melbourne, Tom Boyd and Mitch Honeychurch from the Dogs, Patrick Cripps from Carlton, and Issac Heeney from the Swans. That’s my pick of the class so far. Who do you think cracks the top 50 AFL players first?
ROSE: Great question. We’ve seen some special talents so far, and Cripps, Heeney, Hogan and Brayshaw (in no particular order) are the standouts. I’d say Cripps probably cracks the top 50 first, given that he’ll get more opportunity to show his wares. And Hogan is an absolute beast, so he won’t be far away.
RYAN: Yeah, Cripps has something special about him. One-hundred-and-ninety ccentimetres and almost 90 kilograms already, and he’s only, what, just over 20 years old? That makes me feel old. Another West Australian big bodied midfielder, ready to take the game by storm. There’s been a few of those recently. It does feel like one of the better rising star classes in recent years – and West Coast Eagle Liam Duggan still hasn’t cracked a nomination!
ROSE: Good call on Duggan. And as a Richmond man, I’m not giving Corey Ellis back either. We’ve snared a good one there.
That just about wraps up our review of our pre-season top 50. Any other topics in mind for us to discuss next week?
RYAN: For next week, why don’t we run a ruler over the 18 teams, and slap an ‘outperforming’, ‘about right’ or ‘underperforming’ label on them? That could be fun. And interesting.
ROSE: Not a bad idea around the halfway mark of the season. Perhaps The Roarers could give us some more ideas in the comments below.
The Roar’s pre-season top 50
(As voted by Cameron Rose, Ryan Buckland, Michael Cowley, Sarah Olle and TomC)
1. Gary Ablett (Gold Coast)
2. Nathan Fyfe (Fremantle)
3. Lance Franklin (Sydney)
4. Scott Pendlebury (Collingwood)
5. Joel Selwood (Geelong)
6. Josh Kennedy (Sydney)
7. Luke Hodge (Hawthorn)
8. Travis Boak (Port Adelaide)
9. Jarryd Roughead (Hawthorn)
10. Dyson Heppell (Essendon)
11. Patrick Dangerfield (Adelaide)
12. Robbie Gray (Port Adelaide)
13. Tom Hawkins (Geelong)
14. Tom Rockliff (Brisbane)
15. Matt Priddis (West Coast)
16. Jobe Watson (Essendon)
17. Luke Parker (Sydney)
18. Jordan Lewis (Hawthorn)
19. Dayne Beams (Brisbane)
20. Rory Sloane (Adelaide)
21. Bryce Gibbs (Carlton)
22. Ryan Griffen (GWS)
23. Trent Cotchin (Richmond)
24. Aaron Sandilands (Fremantle)
25. Nick Riewoldt (St Kilda)
26. Kieran Jack (Sydney)
27. Dustin Martin (Richmond)
28. Brent Harvey (North Melbourne)
29. Steve Johnson (Geelong)
30. Sam Mitchell (Hawthorn)
31. Sam Jacobs (Adelaide)
32. Tom Liberatore (Western Bulldogs)
33. Shaun Burgoyne (Hawthorn)
34. Hayden Ballantyne (Fremantle)
35. Callan Ward (GWS)
36. Alex Rance (Richmond)
37. Eric Mackenzie (West Coast)
38. Luke Breust (Hawthorn)
39. Harry Taylor (Geelong)
40. Chad Wingard (Port)
41. Jarrad McVeigh (Sydney)
42. Daniel Talia (Adelaide)
43. Brendon Goddard (Essendon)
44. Steele Sidebottom (Collingwood)
45. Marc Murphy (Carlton)
46. Nick Smith (Sydney)
47. David Mundy (Fremantle)
48. Jack Gunston (Hawthorn)
49. Nick Malceski (Gold Coast)
50. Taylor Walker (Adelaide)
Cameron Rose
Expert
I had Dusty at 21 in my pre-season rankings, and I'm comfortable thinking he's at least that now, probably top 15. As a Tiger man, he's my favourite player by a mile, I just love him.
DylanC
Roar Rookie
Are you going to provide any context? What relevance does this have to anything being discussed here?
jax
Guest
Wayne Carey says Nic is the Cyril Rioli of ruckman http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/who-is-the-cyril-rioli-of-ruckmen-20150625-ghxl5s.html
DylanC
Roar Rookie
Thanks Cam. I’m interested to know, where do you rate Dustin Martin? Would you have him in your top 10? He has always had the freakish skills and goal scoring knowhow, but I fell he’s finally bringing the consistency with it this year. There’s no denying when he’s on he is pretty much unstoppable and one of the best in the game, but inconsistency was something that has always plagued him in previous years.
Freo As
Guest
Those club height/weight listings are a bit like North Korean nuclear missile self-reports. Not terribly accurate.
Katfish
Roar Guru
Ruckmen go in your category of defenders Rosey - if they were good enough they'd be forwards.
Crow Mo
Roar Rookie
Blicavs is 198cm .
Cameron Rose
Expert
Fair call on both Tom. I sense Saad will pick up the odd 1 and 2 in the voting, or at least deserve to. I think if we're looking at the top five rucks, Stef is there with Sandi, Nic Nat, Goldy and Mumford. Each of them has a point of difference, with Martin's being his ball-winning ability. You're right, he should get mentioned more.
DylanC
Roar Rookie
Stefan Martins an interesting one. I think he definitely does get forgotten when talking about the best ruckman in the game. He has certainly been a revelation for the lions and his form for pretty much 12 months has been superb. I still think though when you compare him to Goldstein, Mumford, Sandy and Nic Nat he’s slightly behind. He’s probably been on par, if not slightly ahead of Sam Jacobs and Ivan Maric this year though, which is no mean feat.
Cameron Rose
Expert
That's a bit of "bah humbug" Stewart. It's a great discussion point, and it's always worth considering other points of view to see how they stack up against your own, which then improves your own perspective.
TomC
Roar Guru
I'm not going to revisit my own top 50 for the moment - it could legitimately change every week. But I'll stick my oar into two sub-discussions. Firstly, Adam Saad deserves to be considers alongside the frontrunners for the rising star, certainly well ahead of some of the other names mentioned. Secondly, Stefan Martin deserves to be considered amongst the best ruckmen in the league at the moment. His form in the second half of last year was superb, but I think we all assumed it was a little soft and wouldn't last. I know I did. Instead he's picked up where he left off and even with the Lions struggling to be competitive he continues to find the ball and use it well.
Stewart
Guest
The World will be a better place when everyone who thinks they have the insight to be able to pick the top 50 players in the league, come to the realisation that picking just the best player in the League is near enough to impossible on its own. Thanks Mike Sheahan this is your legacy.
Cameron Rose
Expert
Defenders are always going to be under-represented, because if they were that good they'd be playing forward (a little bit tongue in cheek, but you get my point). We've seen that with Carlisle and Hurley in recent years, who are guns down back, but not nearly as effective up forward.
Cameron Rose
Expert
Great top ten there Dylan, and I agree that the top five still stands up from the beginning of the year. People can have their own order of course, and I'd agree that Dangerfield is now right in that mix. I'd have Gray as next in line, and Beams is the other smoky I'd throw up as well. I always find it difficult to rate ruckmen, and I'm not big on them as whole. And this year particularly, there's not much between Mumford, Goldstein and Nic Nat, with Sandilands in there somewhere too. I think it would have been an incredible battle for AA but Goldy definitely has the inside running now, with Mumford gone.
Freo As
Guest
Brad's a tad better athlete, but Stephen has always been a better footballer smarts and skills wise even allowing for developmental stages.
DylanC
Roar Rookie
If this was based on a ‘schoolyard’ style pick as the original concept was this would be my top 10 right now. 1) Fyfe - clearly the best player in the league. Enough said. 2) Ablett - it would be unjust to write Ablett off. Let see how he performs when he returns, but for now he still commands a top 2 spot. 3) Pendlebury - the silkiest and most composed player in the league. My favourite player to watch (outside of my team). 4) Franklin - Freakish skills that are once in a generation for someone his size. Does things others cant. 5) Selwood - despite having a quitter year he is still an inspiration leader. If you’re going to war, you want this guy next to you. Top 5 pick everytime for mine. 6) Dangerfield - the only player in the league (and maybe Parker) that measures up to Fyfe’s repertoire. Wins the ball on the inside, can burst from packs, kicks goals and is a strong overhead mark. The complete package, but not quite as good as Fyfe 7) Martin - much like Franklin has freakish skills that not many others poses. His ability to push forward and score goals puts him ahead of a host of other mids. You would almost also pick just for his ‘don’t argue’. 8) Gray - the ultimate mid/forward in the comp. Can play as a genuine forward flanker scoring goals and can then push into the middle and dominate. Silky skills and a solidified top 10 player in the league. 9) Hodge - another inspirational leader who can drag his team over the line. Can play as the general down back/behind the ball or can push up into the midfield when required. Like Selwood, this is a guy you want by your side when going to battle. 10) Goldstein - the dominant ruckman in the league this year. Has taken every aspect of his game to another level. Battles single handily all day in the ruck and then provides so much around the ground. He tackles, gets clearances and takes the relieving mark when required.
Wilson
Roar Guru
at this point in time. but give Brad another few years and I think he will pass his brother on ability and Skill Brad is sill only 22 so has time on his side
Katfish
Roar Guru
Doing it as a draft would be an excellent way to go about it. Not sure about Martin as a top 12 by the end of the year though. He doesn't find as much of the ball in contested situation as those in the top 12 players. Also he does not rack up clearances like other players (averaging only 3.4 a game). Until he can become dominant in these categories he probably won't fit into this category
Balthazar
Guest
S Hill is definitly a better player than B Hill
David Ward
Guest
Defenders and ruckmen appear to be as criminally unacknowledged as ever. I doubt that Alex Rance would last till pick 36 if that list was a draft, for example, whether pre-year or midyear. He'd be a bargain at 18, as would Goldstein. The most inexplicable absentee is Dan Hannebery. He's been at the absolute apex of midfielders in the competition for three years, albeit with a slightly leaner 2014. He's as tough as (teammate) Josh Kennedy but classier, and has a certain championship quality. Top 5 for mine. Dustin Martin could also be in the top dozen by year's end - bona fide midfielders who can kick goals from outside 50 metres are high-value commodities with the press-mentality intensifying.