Australia’s scrum could be their only chance of survival

Nah. There's definite doubt and skepticism it did.

Yet he was still better than Douglas for that entire series.

Neither Sio nor Holmes were on the EOYT. These are the guys that have come through to replace the 2 Bens.

Specifically, just last November. The English scored both their tries off the back of dominant scrums. The Welsh lost as usual, but they still managed 5 successive resets followed by a penalty try against us - their weakness was not in the scrum.

Your capacity to make assertions in defiance of the facts continues to astound. The "2 Bens" (can you really not distinguish between 2 different players who play in different positions?) were the bench props on the 2014 EOYT. There is no doubt that our scrum performance improved significantly when Robinson was on, and to some extent when Alexander was on also. By all means keep trying to blot out the backpedalling, penalties and penalty tries with our starting props from your memory.

Blind optimism, and a willingness to ignore evidence is the answer TM. Objectively, our scrum has performed pretty much as it always has. Our scrum was owned by the starting Bok and Puma packs. Once their reserves came on, then we owned them. That's not much of an improvement when you think about how we have scrummed against both teams in the past (including even the much-maligned Al Baxter). Against the ABs in Sydney we looked generally dominant. but there are two important qualifications to that - the first being that ABs looked below their usual standard in most areas for that match. The second being that the dominance was reversed in the next match, particularly by Owen Franks against Sio.

Here we go again. The "guys who have come through to replace the two Bens" looked quite ordinary on the last EOYT tour, and our scrum performed objectively better when Robinson came on (and on at least one occasion when Alexander came on) so what is your basis for that statement? And since neither of the two older players were in the squad for this last TRC, you have no point of comparison then.

"given that previous ‘stars’ such as Genia, Cooper, Beale and Kuridrani have done very little over the last year to suggest they’re remotely near to what they’ve been at times in the past" Sure Birdy. But since previously in the same post you predict that the English scrum is likely to come good in the RWC matches (which may well be the case), isn't it equally possible that players with previous good test performances like Genia, Cooper etc will do the same? I would have thought you are working on the same assumption, not an unreasonable one, that those who have performed well in tests in the past are likely to rise to the big occasion, regardless of recent poor form.

"You need to have the ability to score tries in the first place." That's so unfair Birdy. The ABs showed the ability to score a try against France in 2011. ;)

I think we can be pretty confident, Jemainok, that most of the things we all confidently assert (me included) will be shown to be nonsense when the RWC is over.

Love fest all right.Pretty sure he was missing when the ABs strode thru for there tries in auckland.maybe he had already gone into his hole that he hid in for days

Definitely Joseph would get the position over TK on recent form. I recon a fair assessment every where else. I do think coming back to this side and revaluating after their pool game might be an interesting exercise Birdy.

Good call on Horwill. He has had a few strong games in the last few months, but his leg injury made him porridge for a long period.

Wow. I mean wow. That's one love fest. Peter, you got one thing right. I'm not paying attention ....

Neil Back - You obviously have not paid any attention to Folau's game this year. Not once was he out of positions. He was there for all the kicks put his way by the boks and others. His positional play was brilliant. A match for Brown. Folau breaks tackles when he shouldn't far more. When he catches the high ball when he is surrounded by the kick chasers 2 or 3 of them on him, with no space to move he still beats their tackles and makes yards. Rarely see Brown do this. Folau scores from close to the line as well when the defence is set. Folau is far more dangerous as an attacker in every situation than Brown not just running in from deep as you like portray it. Folau is the equal or better to Brown in every area except for kicking. Folau with Cheikas game plan is not called to kick it much but this year when he has been 5/6 times he has kicked very well. Justify where Folau's positional play has been in error this year. Yes I have watched Brown play , no not every game, I watch the 6N's except when Italy is involved. BTW try and spell Folau correctly.

Peter, maybe if you turned your hilarity down a notch you'd realise I only changed one of Birdy's team. Seems the line between 12 and 13 picks is more of a gulf (or a guffaw) to you? On Falou. I realise he's both a special player but also an untouchable. I've watched every test he's played and every one of Browns. You? I'd agree Falou is a more potent attacking threat ball in hand, running from deep at the line - but my point is I think Brown makes those hard yards when he shouldn't, often when the team is in retreat or at a stalemate, and turns the momentum more often in a game. But that's just my hilarious opinion. Yes his boot is far better, as is his overall positional play and I don't get the feeling he has quite the same defensive mistake in him I think Folau has. Under the high ball Falou might have the jumping edge but I'd back Brown to be in the right place to secure it more often. Overall, I'd love to have either in my team, on balance I'd go for Brown. Hilarious right? As for your extrapolation of scoreline based on our picks, I think Birdy covered it pretty well.

Birdy - My hilarity was to Neil Back who picked 13 English players to 2 aust's. Also how he thought that Brown makes as many if not more important go forward yards and matches Folau in every other aspect. He obviously did not watch Folau in the 4 tests he played. Previous games are not that much indication since the Wallabies team has a number of significant improvements compared to the last 2 years Sio, Holmes, Pocock, Gits, Mitchell On your list (and I agree there are a few that are line ball) Sio = Marler Moore Kepu = Cole Lawes Launchbury Wood = Fardy Hooper(playing both opensides) Pocock Genia = Youngs Foley / Cooper = Ford Watson Giteau Kuridrani = Joseph May Folau Aust 5 Eng 4 with 6 equal Equal in the scrum Eng better in lineout Aust better at the breakdown Halves equal Aust edge midfield Eng better out wide

Vunipola does what every prop in the world does (apart from Aussie props, obviously, who are virtuous to a man and would rather get smashed in the scrum than do anything 'illegal'). I haven't seen him 'go in at right angles' in every scrum. The only certain position I've seen props inhabit over a long period was Aussie props munching the turf once the pressure came on. But, I'm reliably informed that's all changed now.

"Birdy with 2:1 English players you would expect Eng to win by 30+ points." No I wouldn't, Peter, because a number of those calls for individual positions are quite close. You could make a reasonable case that Australia could have over half the team if all the close calls went in favour of the Aussie player. I don't think most of the calls are that controversial, other than to Aussies who assume all those in Green and Gold are square-jawed supermen. The numbers are skewed by the half backs and props. As I said I think the Genia-Cooper partnership of a few years ago would be the selection, but it's difficult to pick those two on the form of the last 12 months. I'm not a huge fan of the alternative half-back pairings and neither, so it seems, are most Aussie Roarers. The selection of the props ignores the last 2 warm-up games when they didn't scrum well in favour of looking at how they performed in the most recent competitive games and last year in general. All that seems fairly reasonable to me, but let me know where you think my selections are unfair to the Aussie alternative. In terms of what it means for the likely result in October, probably not a lot. An individual player (like Pocock for example) could have a disproportionate influence on the game. Units can be more than the sum of their parts. The ball can bounce (un)luckily etc etc. I find it strange though that you seem to think it's utterly hilarious that a team that's beaten you 4 times out of the last 5 might have a significant number of players in a favoured composite team.

Blue, I shared your opinion of Marler but RobC is a pretty astute judge of scrummaging and says he has improved. I'll be watching him with great interest this WC - admittedly the description of the English scrum performance above doesn't suggest he has made great strides.