The debate over promotion and relegation in Australia reminds me of South Korea in 2011, the year before it was introduced. The ‘Let’s wait/It’ll be great/It won’t work here mate’ to-and-fro.
Football folk tend to be conservative, viewing change with suspicion but then adapting to it very quickly once it happens. Introducing three points for a win in England in 1981 had its opposition (and still does) but within weeks, it had been largely accepted and was then slowly adopted by everyone else.
In Korea what happened when and since relegation came into play was what often happens when there is a big change after polarising debate: it is not the promised land that its supporters claimed it would be, but neither is it the dystopia narrated by naysayers.
My status as the 21st most influential person in Korea football in 2009 (as voted by 442 magazine) meant that it was only right and proper that I attended a few discussions in Seoul. Around the same time my team Blackburn Rovers, helpfully, started to flirt with the drop from the English Premier League.
The arguments for and against would mostly be familiar ones to Aussie fans, though every country is different of course.
Korea is certainly unique in its football culture. There had been a quick experiment in 2006 to have promotion but the winner of the all second-tier playoff (defeating a deeply Christian team called Ansan Hallelujah that, instead of a pre-match huddle, lined up in the shape of cross before kick off and prayed. Journalists dreaded interviews with the players as they usually ended with enthusiastic invitations to attend church the following Sunday) then refused to take their place in the top tier.
The introduction of genuine promotion and relegation in 2012 happened for three main reasons.
The first was that there was growing pressure from the AFC. The confederation had long complained that one of the continent’s strongest leagues, and the dominant power (more so at the time than now) in the Asian Champions League, did not have promotion and relegation. This is going to happen more and more in regard to Australia. The AFC is going to push.
Second and more pressing was the match-fixing scandal of 2011. It was a major outbreak and shocked authorities and everyone else. It resulted in a massive drive to make the game more professional and that had to extend as far down the pyramid as possible.
And there was already a second tier. It was a question of trying to make this as competitive as possible.
So the initiative came from the K-League working with the support of the KFA, not the clubs themselves as may have to happen in Australia.
The main argument against relegation was that if a club went down, the owners would pull the plug.
The change in thinking at the top was that this may not actually happen and in most cases it probably would not. The second division is not the end, especially as it grows and improves.
The right-thinking owners would see it as a challenge to get back to the top tier as soon as possible, and if they didn’t and really wanted to bail then so be it: for the league a bit of short-term pain would, hopefully, be worth it for long-term gain.
It took relegation a while to get going (the K-League’s split system, where the 12 teams split into two groups near the end, does not help. This takes attention away from the bottom half).
There has been mostly yo-yoing between the top two flights and it was not until last season that the second tier started to show some life. A new team in Seoul E-Land spent a bit of cash, got former Vancouver Whitecaps coach Martin Rennie and plenty of talented and experienced Koreans.
There was a real promotion battle with improving and ambitious teams willing to spend to get into the top tier. This group of three or four teams is starting to lift standards.
The relegated teams have been reasonably enthusiastic, Gyeongnam – a team that was struggling before the drop – perhaps excepted, but the real test will come this season.
Busan I’Park is a former Korean and Asian champion but has been badly run and poorly financed for years. Even so, it was still a shock to see a former powerhouse take a tumble in 2015.
I spent some time with the club during pre-season in Thailand, and there was a determination to get back into the top tier. Some said relegation was the wake-up call needed. Time will tell.
Korea’s relegation experiment has been a modest success despite the fact that it was thrown together quickly. The second tier is slowly improving and there is a hope that this season Suwon FC, the first team to be promoted that had not come down from the first division, can shine.
Nobody is expecting a Leicester-like scenario but you never know. With promotion and relegation, such dreams are possible.
MelbCro
Guest
not all second tier clubs charge the same mate. You are making generalisations there. I agree though that in a general sense the fees are out of control, particularly at certain clubs (they know who they are). The solutions you offer up are pretty dumb, because it doesn't solve anything as it is at the federation level where the problems start.
LordNick
Guest
The second tier clubs in Australia are a gang of vampires who charge kids thousands of dollars a year to play football. Thats their only source of income, the say they also get money from sponsors when you realise their sponsors are the parents of kids that makes it even worse . The thing you really need to do is drive the stake into the bloodsuckers, and get rid of the state leagues. . This is the only country in the world where football is run off money from exploiting parents dreams. What they do have is a gang of hangers on at these clubs usually the useless sons of people connected with the clubs, who can;t get a job elsewhere and they spend their time at the clubs and on the internet trying to argue to get into the A-league. Replace the second tier with a representative league based on regional federations where you pay one registration fee at grassroots, get selected on merit, instead of the current system where the regional representatives pay a big additional fee. Fix this and it will improve football in this country out of sight.
Aaron
Roar Rookie
English Super League (Leauge) has multiple tiers with a salary cap. The problem would be if lower tiers had smaller salary caps because you couldn't keep players during relegation (with top tier clauses in contracts now the epl clubs cant usually keep players when going down anyway) but as long as the ceiling is the same across the board its only the floor that changes. This would mean the clubs willing or able to spend the most would get to the top tier quickly but couldn't go on to buy that competitions trophy as such.
MelbCro
Guest
South absolutely has a budget between 400-600k. At Knights ours is 250k.
Clay Davis
Guest
Funny if WSW and Sydney got relegated. You can bet the league would have some proviso to stop two clubs dropping from a big market. It just won't work here. For starters the second tier would be lucky to be afford the costs, on top of this they don't have the fan bases as they are ethnic social clubs, not representing a region or city. The NFL is the biggest sports business on the planet. Soccer looks to be heading this way itself in Europe. Only a matter of when.
football
Guest
Just responding to Kaks's comment, he cites Australia and the US as examples of countries with uber competitive sporting environments. I'd venture a further example; Ireland. The league of Ireland (football) is in terrible state while other sports like the GAA (Hurling and Gaelic) run rampant. I think even club Rugby (pro 12 or the Celtic League) is more popular that the League of Ireland.
Justin Mahon
Guest
Not withstanding some massive differences between the economics, geography and sporting markets of the two nations - Korea is a place we can learn from. I do get a giggle from some posters who deride everything the FFA say from Sydney telling P/R sceptics that we should do as the AFC in KL dictate though. Im Iv the view a solid national second tier is needed long before we should establish a closed and regulated P/R system between it and the A-League.
FIUL
Guest
So what if there's no team from Sydney? In recent years, there has often been no team from Berlin in Bundesliga & it survives. Sport is about competition - finding out which team is best. Only in Australia, fans rate a team - not on how well they play - but how high are their TV ratings & their home crowds. In Australia, a team like Eibar with average crowds of 5.2k would never be allowed in the top competition. Getafe from the city of Madrid with crowds of 6.5k would be shunned because Real Madrid gets crowds of 70k. Leicester City would never be allowed to into the Top competition; neither would Bournemouth. And Leeds & Newcastle would always be in the top competition because they get big crowds. I keep saying. Aussies are event-watchers. They don't understand the purity of sport.
Punter
Guest
Geez imagine the EPL worried about P/R if Man U & Man City got relegated!!!!! Geez you show some massive insecurities here.
AR
Guest
The other factor is the broadcast rights. If SFC and WSW get relegated (and replaced by, say, teams from Perth and Adelaide) there's suddenly no team from Sydney playing...by far the competitions biggest TV audience.
mikeD
Guest
i still remember that time when NQF and GCU were in the league. Everyone goes on about.. oh yeah by 2018 - 12 or 13 teams. 2020=were gona have 14 teams etc etc etc. Gona have a 14 team NYL functioning well + reserve division. Feet on the ground.
marron
Guest
A league expanded and divided in two. Easy. Still an a league license.
jbinnie
Guest
Fadida - Try to put yourself in the major position in an HAL franchise. You have posted your bond ( $5, millions) and now you have to start looking at the cost structure of running a team in the only professional football league in Australia.Where do you start???? Here is a little "league table" based at this point in time and giving the positions 1-10 based on average attendances so far. To work out an income stream I have used $25 entry fee. I have also shown the income generated by these figures Melbourne Victory Total 206,324 Income $5,158,100 Sydney FC Total 156,684 Income $ 3,917,100 West Sydney Total 143,160 Income $3,579,000 Roar Total 121,397 Income $ 3,034,925 Melb City Total 109,526 Income $ 2,738,150. Adelaide Ciy Total 109.485 Income $ 2,737 125 Jets Total 107,270 Income $ 2,681,750 CCM Total 87,262 Income $ 2,181,550 Phoenix Total 70,345 Income $ 1,758,625 Perth Total 67,417 Income $ 1,685,425. Now with this sort of differential in crowds and income from crowds is talk of P/R really based on reality? The HAL as it stands today is in need of a great deal of work to try and equate this sort of differential, for remember,you are in the shoes of someone who may have invested $5 millions and may just be looking for s return on that expenditure.Your thoughts?. jb
Onside
Guest
Is it possible to have a second division without first removing the salary cap. Deep pockets are one thing, but asking investors to stump up money for a second division side in the hope of cracking the big time, seems a tall ask when owners are financially neutered in the interests of a level playing feild. I am in favour of HAL rules, but the day will come when investors will not be interested if there are financial barriers that limit success.
Mister Football
Roar Guru
LM that's certainly the message we are getting from HQ on an almost daily basis - but I'm not sure it's sinking in with anyone.
Mister Football
Roar Guru
That's a more than fair question being asked by jb. It got me thinking, with 9 clubs guaranteed a license to play in the A-League until 2034, and with 2035 being the earliest that P&R can operate within the terms of the current licenses, should a B League already be in existence by 2035, would the 8, 10 or 12 teams in the B League have paid any form of licensing fee? If they have been plucked from the NPL as existing clubs, presumably they would want to be in the B League without having to incur a large license fee. Does that mean when one of the B League teams get promoted to the A League, are they getting a bit of a freeby in comparison to the clubs which had to pay a large license fee? (one of whom, presumably, would have just been relegated to the B League)
MikeCCMFAN
Guest
Competition breeds competition. Long term, it is the right step. Short term, if it is implemented, i hope the current franchise teams survive if they are relegated Competition - Yes, always fighting for something Business model - people have sunk big money into these 10 franchise. Contracts would need to be carefully managed between the owners, Aleague/FFA. Wouldn't surprise me that some of these owners have signed on for a non relegation league. My team would be relegated, it would suck, but the true fans will stay and the club will get stronger as the years go on
jbinnie
Guest
Horto -What about the 'minnow"who has won pronmotion and is getting "smashed' every week.???? How are they going tomaintain one of those licences thatwe are led to believe cost $5 million???Your thoughts???.jb
Kaks
Roar Guru
I agree we need a second tier and we need to do it asap and build from the bottom up, I'm saying that currently the NPL teams are not ready to take the leap and become completely professional. Seems like we both agree on the same thing and are arguing about nothing?
Uncle Junior
Guest
"The very biggest and best run NPL clubs are running at a budget of between $400k to $600k." I know for a fact that is absolutely not true for SMFC. I'd be surprised if it's true for Melbourne Knights. Promotion and relegation may not happen in the short term, but a National 2nd division will happen. And that scares people outside football. A national 2nd division would be another way for football to demonstrate the way it will grow way beyond any other sport in Australia. As it is the WLeague has got the other sports panicking and suddenly taking an interest in women.