Goal kicking a looming problem for the All Blacks

What you say about John Hart revolutionising the way Rugby was played is so correct ... and that was borne out over that lunch at Tony's. The core of the 1987 RWC squad was from Auckland ... and others might disagree, but the gap between the Auckland dominated All Blacks from about 1986 - 1990 and the rest of the world was as great as it is today. Hart was a large part of that. We moan and carry on about the Blues today but TM, we had some great times... in fact I think we are still the 2nd most successful province/franchise. Those times will return ... I just hope I'm still alive when that happens!!

Yep TM, you are right... memory is fading!...LOL I was unsure as who 'I wanted' for NZ scrum half, that was settled when the pig farmer controlled the game at Athletic Park against the Lions (that must of been 1983, given previous Lions tour was 1971), a real subline performance in a howling gale. And yes the competition between Sid Going and Chris Laidlaw was another that we had the pleasure to experience. Laidlaw who at the time had perfected the dive pass and the audacious Sidney Milton who bamboozled his own team mates as well as the opposition as no one knew what he was going to do next! ...(it would have been great to be a fly on the wall at a team strategy meeting!). When one thinks about it. NZ has been spoilt for depth over many years in most positions.

yeah that one was forward.

It was Hika Reids try. Watch Loveridges pass at 1.30.35. And a clearer view in the slow mo after.. Look at the grass shades...Loveridge passes it right on the line of one shade of the grass and it lands on the ground just before the next shade of grass. I sure they're 5 meters apart. The pass was five meters forward. Not picked up by many but it stood out for me, because between that and the Nicky Alllen bounce try at 42.16 the score greatly flattered the ABs, yet we heard very little other than a convincing win, even from the Welsh press. Yet the Haden one where there was actually no illegality with Geoff Wheel holding down Oliver (albeit before he could also jump out of the lineout!) we still hear about today! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xzXu8KGBnvY

It's from memory but at the time From the old interpretation of forward...from pass to where it was either caught or landed I recall measuring at least 5 maybe 10 meters...will check...

Taylor you might be confusing Mourie's try with another. There were no forward passes leading up to that try.

Ha ha...you mean Mark Donaldson I think, they had a ding dong battle, bit like the Marshall vs Kelleher one. Laidlaw drew pistols with Sid Going before he retired and gave it to Siddy.

At Otahuhu we had Harty out coaching us a couple of times at under 21s so I'm a big John Hart fan. His links with Waitemata also helped with progressing Michael Jones career who we were all aware of at about 16 onwards and whenever we played at Waitemata park we would look out for his team playing. I think Harty got a run of bad deals and luck throughout his career. He was stunning with Auckland from 83 when he took over, the first of the real modern rugby sides. The don't trust Aucklanders thing had him having to suck up to guys like Grizz and Mains throughout his staggered AB career, only to get lumped with some terrible players and leaders when he finally got the job with the Thornes and Randall's...and a few other journeymen. He had a few stars in the backs but the leadership was poor around him. Those outside Auckland will probably jump all over this but Fact is Harty revolutionised the game with his more modern concepts and thinking, really opening up the game in Auckland which directly lead to the ABs 87 and after becoming so dominant.

Ha!, of course I remember it ... when reminded!... LOL You mentioned Trapper there too .. I recall the competition between him and Laidlaw as well ... actually if one thinks back... we have been well served with rugby players in most positions ... it is not just a new revelation.

TM, John Hart was also from Auckland, a few years younger than I but I met him in Wellington when he was with Fletcher Challenge. I was with a company in Auckland who had dealings with Fletcher Challenge in those days when we jointly made submissions to Trade and Industries (as it was in those days). He used to play for Waitemata but never reach great heights that I recall anyhow. Later when he was relocated back to Auckland, he excelled in the coaching role. I meet up with him again, early 80's ... he was a fascinating character, criticised by many but imo an outstanding coach. I will never forget when we were having lunch one time, I think it was at Tony's Lorne St he was telling us that all rugby footballers needed to be able to play with the ball .. in other words not be pigeon holed into a single role. Funny statement then but well before his time.

Remember the try in Cardiff? He bounced it from about two feet from memory, something the TMO would be all over these days. That and the at least 10 meter forward pass from Loveridge to set up that breakout try by Mourie had me thinking they were going to moan as they did in the 78 Haden match but instead the press were showering praise on the ABs after the match. A complete whitewash ...23-3 or something like that, but two tries certainly weren't. Didn't seem to matter though.

Joey, I'll take ...."You are still a young buck son" as a compliment as you are well off the mark. If you were a mere 70 years of age, I'd say 'you were still a young buck son' as I'd be giving you a few years. As for whether I have seen more 1st 5's than you or not, I have no idea, neither had I inferred that anywhere. I can say though that I've seen a good many. As I scan the comments, I note you had suggested that I had not answered your question, though it was not addressed to me personally regarding Allen,... Nicky Allen I assume. Well as it was apparently addressed to me, I will respond to that. Yes I did see Nicky Allen play in the NPC for Auckland when John Hart was the coach, my recollection of that was due to the fact that I had personal business dealings with John Hart when he was was with Fletcher Challenge and a lot of 'off the cuff' discussions was about rugby. I maybe wrong here but I thought Allen's place in Auckland's NPC side was outside of Grant Fox who I seem to recall was 1st five. As for Nicky Allen's tests for the AB's I never saw him play 'live' in either of his AB tests which were both outside of NZ, only replays. Talented?... without doubt but injury prone and as a result of his premature death, never had the chance to realise his potential. Does that answer your question?

Clown. His match against Wales is well known, especially for the bounce the ball try in the top corner. I remember his head knock well, the coma etc. anyone who doubt another's knowledge usually has shortfalls themselves. You started off questioning RTs, now you doing the same here. Allen was an Aucklander, so is RT and I. But fact is he isn't or wasn't as good as DC because...he wasn't. Simple as that. Great players stick around and hang in there. Allen had a sense of frustration in the same way Nick Evans did. Couldn't crack the Auckland side when Foxy got in.

AND look at how long it took Carter to get into a consistent starting first-five role with the All Blacks. Sopoaga offers more than both Cruden and Barrett in this regard. Seems a no brainer considering the All Blacks are technically in a re-building phase, and want someone to carry them through to the next world cup. (Cruden is injured more often than not, and Barrett is not a starting All Black first-five.

I agree with you Joey. And okay RT, Carter was fantastic in 2005, but Sopoaga probably had the most impressive debut since Carter, and it could be argued it was even better... Considering it was a)starting b)against South Africa and c) in South Africa

Sam Cane can.

McKenzie will only play fullback for the All Blacks in the next 18 months for development reasons not because he deserves to start ahead of Ben Smith. When Naholo and Skudder are fit they are the two first choice right wing options for the All Blacks. Ben Smith would become the third option which only then would open the door for McKenzie to enter onto the bench behind Barrett at fullback and that's only if Skudder is on the right wing otherwise he would probably slot into fullback ahead of McKenzie as well, when you are talking about picking the best possible team available for test match footy right now. My calls for McKenzie to have a crack at 15 for the AB's in the Wales tests are development based, not because i think he is better then Ben Smith or Barrett or Skudder because he has another year of delivering at every level before he can prove that.

Considering Charlie Ngatai will have the 12 jumper sewn up barring injury i think Cruden is safe as houses.

When you look at what it took for Ben Smith to get the fullback spot ahead of Dagg i think Sopoaga has a long wait while Cruden is still delivering in the black jersey. He has never lost while wearing the 10 jumper. He still has it all over Sopoaga with ball in hand in terms of taking on the line and creating opportunities for his outside backs, that carries far more weight then about 10-15% or so in kicking stats imo.

and not that its a big deal if the ABs lose some games this season. ABs cant win everything so if we lose a few games in a the year furthest away from the next WC then so be it. as longs as we learn and get better that's all that matters.