One of the great furphies that is put around the Australian rugby scene, mainly by the ARU, is that Australia has a Player Depth Problem (PDP).
As I hope to demonstrate here, Australia’s development of players is fine, it isn’t a PDP – it is a Player Retention Problem (PRP).
To illustrate the point, I have simply gone to trusty Wikipedia and trusted the player country designations on Pro Club pages. There will definitely be more, there may be some no longer playing, however, with the wonders of Microsoft Excel I can at least state there are no double ups.
Over a few nights I managed to come up with a grand total of 104 professional Australian rugby players plying their trade in countries other than Australia.
Allowing for some veterans, that is at least two more Super Rugby Squads of Pro Australian Players. Yes, not all are stars, but they are good enough to be paid for their services somewhere.
Those who know me from when I was more regularly contributing (on TWF) will recall I love putting up a XV. Well brace yourself, here is three of them for different reasons.
The first is my selection of the best (or thereabouts) players available. I think it has the capacity to beat any of the current five Australian Super Rugby outfits.
Please remember this is to illustrate a point rather than worrying about the specific (social…) merits of individuals.
Australian Furphy first XV
1 Guy Millar SR Highlanders
2 John Ulugia TOP14 Clermont
3 Ollie Hoskins RFUC London Irish
4 Luke Jones TOP14 Bordeaux
5 Hugh Pyle TOP14 Stade Francais
6 Curtis Browning TOP14 Lyon
7 David Pocock JTL Wild Knights
8 Lachlan McCaffrey EP Leicester
9 Will Genia TOP14 Stade Francais
10 Matt Toomua EP Leicester
11 Peter Betham EP Leicester
12 Matt Giteau TOP14 Toulon
13 Junior Rasolea PRO12 Edinburgh
14 Joe Tomane TOP14 Montpellier
15 Kurtley Beale EP Wasps
16 Albert Anae JTL Mitsubishi Dynaboars
17 Salesi Manu JTL Honda Heat
18 Paul Alo-Emile TOP14 Stade Francais
19 Sitaleki Timani TOP14 Clermont
20 Ben Mowen TOP14 Pau
21 Nic White TOP14 Montpellier
22 Mike Harris TOP14 Lyon
23 James O’Connor TOP14 Toulon
The second is to illustrate the depth of playing experience missing from within our shores, the players that can be called on as injury cover, playing assistant coaches, mentors and general Rugby community.
To be honest, if their bodies all held up I don’t think they would come last in the Australian Conference either. Our lack of depth in the front row does start to show here, in that there aren’t as many playing overseas.
Australian Furphy Veterans XV
1 Greg Holmes EP Exeter
2 Huia Edmonds PROD2 Narbonne
3 Salesi Ma’afu EP Gloucester
4 James Horwill EP Harlequins
5 Mark Chisholm PRO12 Munster
6 Hugh McMeniman JTL Honda Heat
7 Julian Salvi EP Exeter
8 Wycliff Palu JTL Toyota Verblitz
9 Josh Valentine PROD2 Beziers
10 Brock James TOP14 La Rochelle
11 Digby Ioane SR Crusaders
12 Berrick Barnes JTL Wild Knights
13 Adam Ashley-Cooper TOP14 Bordeaux
14 Drew Mitchell TOP14 Toulon
15 Mark Gerrard JTL TI Shuttles
16 VACANT VACANT
17 Lotu Taukeiaho PROD2 Aurillac
18 Dylan Evans PRO12 Scarlets
19 Peter Kimlin TOP14 Grenoble
20 Lei Tomiki PROD2 Narbonne
21 Brendan McKibbin RFUC London Irish
22 Myles Dorrian RFUC Bedford Blues
23 Clint Eadie PROD2 Narbonne
And finally, the youth that is leaving our shores before they have even finished developing, either kicked to the curb by the ongoing pursuit of perfection by recruiters, or disillusioned and heading to bigger money or eligibility for other countries with their pathway to the Wallabies over.
These are the players that should be littered throughout our conference, coming through the ranks in the U20 comp, not bolstering the development and competition of foreign competitions.
Again, front row stocks a bit stretched.
Australian Furphy Future XV
1 David Feao TOP14 La Rochelle
2 David Porecki RFUC London Irish
3 Cameron Orr EP Gloucester
4 Thomas Boidin PROD2 Narbonne
5 Phoenix Battye PROD2 Beziers
6 Corey Thomas JTL Canon Eagles
7 Liam Gill TOP14 Toulon
8 Rahboni Warren-Vosayaco SR Sunwolves
9 Richard Kingi ITMC Tasman Makos
10 Zack Holmes TOP14 La Rochelle
11 Alex Northam PRO12 Edinburgh
12 Malieto Hingano JTL Honda Heat
13 Sasa Tofilau PRO12 Edinburgh
14 Henry Clunies-Ross TOP14 Lyon
15 UJ Seuteni PROD2 Oyonnax (Academy)
16 VACANT VACANT
17 Michael Alaalatoa SR Crusaders
18 Christopher Seuteni PROD2 Albi
19 BJ Edwards EP Bristol (Academy)
20 Harrison Orr EP Newcastle
21 Michael Dowsett EP Worcester
22 Sam Greene JTL TI Shuttles
23 Sam Johnson PRO12 Glasgow
In principle, the players from these ‘Squads’ (and the 38 so far unlisted, see below) should have a future in Australian Rugby. The rubbish being trotted out about not being able to support five teams is just that, rubbish.
The ARU needs to extract the digit and rather than whinging about a perceived PDP, actually get on to addressing the core root issues behind our ever growing PRP.
The other players?
Feel free to make your own XV Selections, they are in descending age order here:
Daniel Heenan JTL Wild Knights
Ben Hand TOP14 Grenoble
Ben White EP Exeter
Junior Taavili PROD2 CS Bourgoin-Jallieu
Leon Power PROD2 Oyonnax
Henry Vanderglas TOP14 Grenoble
Dave Dennis EP Exeter
Beau Robinson RFUC Doncaster Knights
Jono Jenkins PROD2 Narbonne
Chris Tuatara-Morrison TOP14 Brive
Poutasi Luafutu TOP14 Brive
Ben Lucas JTL Toyota Verblitz
Nathan Daly PROD2 Albi
Anthony Fainga’a JTL Kintetsu Liners
Michael Bond SR Sunwolves
Lachie Turner EP Exeter
Sam Wykes SR Sunwolves
Brackin Karauria-Henry JTL Shining Arcs
Blair Connor TOP14 Bordeaux
Alfie Mafi TOP14 Brive
Dave McKern RFUC Jersey Reds
Tom Murday PROD2 Agen
Rory Walton PROD2 Carcassonne
Ben Tapuai EP Bath
Ben Barba TOP14 Toulon
Jesse Mogg TOP14 Montpellier
Rodney Davies JTL Mitsubishi Dynaboars
Nick Haining RFUC Jersey Reds
Afa Amosa TOP14 La Rochelle
Tala Gray TOP14 Toulous
Tom Matthews PROD2 Carcassonne
Afusipa Taumoepeau TOP14 Castres
Ed Quirk SR Sunwolves
Peter Samu SR Crusaders
Ben Adams RFUC Bedford Blues
Nicholas Price PROD2 CS Bourgoin-Jallieu
Kimami Sitauti PROD2 Colomiers
Ratu Tagive PRO12 Glasgow
A couple of things I noted in compiling is that a seemingly high number were associated with the Force at some stage and the really young fellas that really hadn’t been given a chance at all.
What the flow on from this scenario does is also attract the duel eligible players (PIs, NZ, Europe) to reconsider a move to Europe etc or in the case of modern South Africa keeps Australia on the radar to follow in the footsteps of names like Rathbone, Vickerman et al.
I would note, pre-Force I did a similar thing to get an idea of who we might see in the inaugural Squad and came up with about 30 names overseas, some of whom are also in this list. So clearly expansion has created more professional players from Australia, we just aren’t using them!
Ben Forsyth
Roar Rookie
Came across this old post from 2017. At the time, I wrote that there were- "a grand total of 104 professional Australian rugby players plying their trade in countries other than Australia." I found that quite alarming given that- "pre-Force (ie 2004) I did a similar thing to get an idea of who we might see in the inaugural Squad and came up with about 30 names overseas" I undertook the same process for Squads in the 2022/23 season and there are now +150 playing professionally overseas. I'm no mathematician but that is a concerning increasing trend in my view. Australia does not have a player creation problem, it has a player retention problem. We need to develop opportunities and create market value, the playing stocks are "there". There was a time that the IRB listed the playing numbers for each Nation and broke into Senior Male, Female, Junior etc. The last time I was able to see them (late 2010's) Australia still had more "Senior Male Players" than New Zealand despite all the doomsdaying of a dying sport. I have no readily available source to check in 2023, but suspect while numbers would be falling, overall it isn't "dying".
jeznez
Roar Guru
Yep - they have Aussies Mike Alalaatoa and Pete Samu, in there as well. Is shocking that we've let them slip out of our system. At the very least the ARU should implement a new rule allowing themselves to pick Aussie's playing for NZ Super Rugby teams if they are up to standard (which I'd suggest the fact that they are playing for Kiwi Super sides implies they are!)
Bakkies
Guest
They still have Whitelock, Read, Franks and Crockett in key positions. As for openside Matt Todd is in his late 20s and has already proven himself at that level. Over the past last several seasons Carter and McCaw had missed a lot of Super Rugby so they are already used to playing without them.
Bakkies
Guest
The Vikings are supposed to be changing to the Kookaburra for this NRC season (was supposed to happen last year). For obvious reasons we haven't heard much about it happening this year as the Brumbies (who also back the team) have had bigger issues to worry about.
Bakkies
Guest
'The middle row has been mediocre – functional at some things but not really one lock that had an alround and world class game since Eales. Perhaps Horwill for a season or two and Vickerman – but he wasn’t really formatively developed in Oz. In what universe are Skelton and Mumm international class locks ? ' Look at Jake Ball was right under the nose of the Force and they let him go. Very physical and has a good offloading game. Now has 26 caps for Wales. Only 25 too. Coleman and Ball in the row for the Force would give them a test quality lock pairing with aggression.
Bakkies
Guest
The Force could still do with Longbottom (I think he was their first local product to make in to their side since their introduction).
Bakkies
Guest
'That they aren’t is because there isn’t the money here to pay them, and they have gone to where the money is.' True Geoff. Aussie Rugby administrators have wasted a huge amount of money on backs (in the Super Rugby sides and/or the ARU if they have a top up) whereas forwards are grossly under paid. European clubs value forwards (particularly tight heads) so no wonder there are a lot of Aussie forwards plying their trade in this part of the world. Cheika so highly regarded Kane Douglas that he chased him as soon as he left for Ireland. I know Cheika likes him (don't know why) but the press in Ireland were shocked at how low his pay was in Australia. It was something like $140,000 a year he was on at the time. Leinster paid him far more than that and it was considered to be average given that he was an international. David Lyons spent the last 7 or so seasons of his career playing club Rugby in Wales and France. That's a lot of Rugby that the Tarts missed out on from him.
Bakkies
Guest
'I’d love to see some sort of transfer system like they have in soccer whereby if a player under 25 say signs to play for a team in a different country, that country or club pays a fee to the union that developed them.' There is one for players transferring while on contract. You can't enforce transfer fees on uncontracted free agents.
Bakkies
Guest
He is eligible for England too.
soapit
Guest
once they up it to 5 years they should change the consecutive thing to you needing to be out of the country for 5 years ie when you qualify for another country on residency you lose your previous residency qualification. harsh on guys who havent been born there yet live their whole youth then go os for a year say
Bakkies
Guest
'It closed because it was horrendously run and was bleeding money, it borrowed $1m plus from the football club (a separate entity) to cover its costs but in the end had to be sold.' In other words píssed it up the wall literally.
Bakkies
Guest
'So the clubhouse was closed but somehow that’s the ARU’s fault?' That's Australian Rugby in a nutshell. Sense of entitlement, chronic mismanagement and living beyond their means. Clubs expecting the ARU (not the SRU or NSWRU) to bail them out after running themselves in to the ground. These planks are ruining their own club's future by using it as a boys club and constantly budgeting for things they can't afford.
Bakkies
Guest
'And only about 3 of those are any good' Are you for real? A lot of ex internationals there and players that are still capable of contributing at Super Rugby level (more so than the players currently in Australia).
Bakkies
Guest
'A couple of things I noted in compiling is that a seemingly high number were associated with the Force at some stage and the really young fellas that really hadn’t been given a chance at all.' There's a lock running around in the AIL in Ireland for Shannon that was let go by the Force Rylie Winter. Not sure if he is on the radar for a pro contract in Ireland due to the foreign player rules. Zack Holmes is moving to Toulouse and Nic White to Exeter so there are players off contract who have decided to stay abroad rather than move back. Jesse Mogg's contract must be up soon too.
piru
Roar Rookie
I feel like you don't read comments before you reply to them. Explain how a player choosing to kick too much is a failure of his skillset
piru
Roar Rookie
theres a difference between good enough to be proffessional (at some lower league club in the UK) and good enough for super rugby England are better than Australia at the moment - all these players who are cast aside or ignored are just helping them improve.
Fionn
Guest
There's a difference between being good enough for NZ Super Rugby teams and Australian and Japanese Super Rugby teams. These are the best players we've got.
Max Power
Guest
It was millionaires that were on the board of the Randwick Rugby Club (the licensed club) and ran it into the ground resulting in it to be sold.
Max Power
Guest
No several owners of the units are big Randwick sponsors, it had nothing to do with them. It closed because it was horrendously run and was bleeding money, it borrowed $1m plus from the football club (a separate entity) to cover its costs but in the end had to be sold.
Mark
Guest
Hmmm...based on what criteria are these players good enough to raise the bar? Not so strong a piece Far too much of it is subjective