Greatness is defined in the dictionary as: an extent, amount, or intensity considerably above average. But how is that portrayed in the sporting world?
Does an athlete need success, premierships or gold medals to be regarded as an all-time great?
It is the age-old question that has divided barbecue conversations for years now.
Some of the biggest names in AFL history played their entire careers without a flag, yet are widely regarded as some of the greatest players of all time.
Look no further than Gary Ablett Snr who is arguably the greatest AFL player in the modern game, Tony Lockett who holds the AFL record for most goals kicked in a career – a whopping 1,360 at an average of almost five goals a game over 281 career games – or perhaps Nathan Buckley who without a doubt will go down as one of Collingwood’s best players.
Yet someone such as Liam Shiels, who at just 24 years of age became a three time AFL Premiership player, will never, ever be considered in the same breath as these players.
Perhaps you may need some NRL players who have also gone an entire career without premiership success. One of the biggest names to ever play the game, Wally ‘The King’ Lewis, surely tops that list.
To be fair rugby league is a slightly different kettle of fish, Lewis did have major success outside of the club scene where he was captain for 30 of his 31 games for the Queensland Maroons and an eight time ‘man of the match’ awardee. It was this feat plus his Australian representative honours which saw Wally Lewis named as an immortal. But as a clubman of Brisbane and the Gold Coast, Wally Lewis never got the chance to lift the Premiership trophy above his head on grand final day.
This argument does not take place just in Australia either. Take a look at the NBA this season for example.
We have just witnessed two of the statistically greatest seasons ever put together in James Harden and Russell Westbrook. Yet these spectacular seasons have been marred by the fact that neither of these franchises made it past the second round of the playoffs.
(Wikipedia Commons)
Russell Westbrook will be in the record books for a very long time for the most triple-doubles in a season (unless he breaks it himself next season) yet he won’t be remembered as one of the greatest players to ever play the game.
Yet when we look at the definition at the start of this article, he more than fits into that category?
Evidently, the answer to the aforementioned question is no.
In a time where society is demanding nothing more than success from their clubs, no you do not need success to become an ‘All-Time Great’.
However, success immediately elevates someone above the rest of the pack.
The biggest key to greatness, seems to be consistency to the public eye.
The players mentioned above were some of the greatest players of their time, for a very long time. Every time you watched them play, you knew they were going to do something special and lift the team around them.
Of course there is always going to be arguments as to who fits the ‘All-Time Great’ category in all sports, but that is the great thing about sport is the opinions that everyone can share.
For me, a few players from different leagues who are well on their way to greatness, if they have not already achieved it are:
- Patrick Dangerfield
- Luke Hodge
- Cameron Smith
- Johnathan Thurston
- LeBron James
- Kawhi Leonard
- Jordan Spieth
- Steve Smith
I would love to hear who else you think is well on their way to greatness.
The Doc
Roar Guru
great article Dan. one that we grapple with a lot. Greatness is greatness IMO regardless of how much team success that they achieved. Team success provides the athlete with a chance to show their wares in the toughest of arenas but that is a function of being part of great team. I do not think that team success elevates one great athlete over another. Put Le Bron in the spurs team and he might have had a lot more than the 3 championship rings. but he has carried, willed his teams to the finals on multiple occasions and whilst he may not win as many as MJ or even Kobe, he had to do it with inferior teams and for that reason he deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as MJ. You also cant go past numbers for they are the ultimate true measure of a player. Lockett's record as the all-time greatest goal scorer puts him above Dunstall even though Dunstall won numerous flags.
Pope Paul VII
Guest
Great example. Loved his work. My mate Phil "Long bombs to Snake" Baker was a bit of GF specialist also. In 77 he kicked 6 ( of 9 ) goals in the 77 draw. In the replay he dobbed 3.5 in the romping 21.25 scoreline. Yet only averaged a bit over 1 goal per game over his career.
Pelican
Guest
The Freak is comimg. Gianis Atekacumpo could be the best ever. His season was amazing. If you haven't seen him play I recommend looking at a highlights package of the season just gone. The kid can play.
Dan Helson
Guest
Team success certainly elevates a player instantly into discussions of greatness. But they need to perform within those teams as well.
Dan Helson
Guest
I have to agree Rick. It is really going to take someone very very special to emulate the feats he produced. Considering we have someone like LeBron running amok in the League yet we cant quite push him over MJ. LeBron is by far the best player of his generation and Era though. No questions asked in my opinion.
GJ
Guest
I read an article (in a past life) that referenced Ablett in his life between Hawthorn and Geelong spending a huge amount of time road running. He was complex and individual. I am not convinced that poor trainer is the right description.
Raimond
Roar Guru
I have a fondness for Lewis Roberts-Thomson, mainly because his best performances were in two tight, successful Grand Finals. Yet no expert would put him in the top 1,000 AFL GoATs, let alone the top 100.
Raimond
Roar Guru
Dunstall was greater imo because he changed the way full-forwards played (ie. defensive work, rather than simply letting the fullback run away with the ball).
Pope Paul VII
Guest
I love the battle against the odds though in footy (compared to my other fave, cricket) it's much less obvious. For sheer skill Bobby Skilton is the most notable in footy. 3 Brownlows and a single semi final appearance in over a decade. Personal fave for sheer will Phil Baker's spectacular marking 6 goals in NM's loss to Hawthorn 78 GF.
Birdman
Guest
No flags don't make Ablett and Lockett any less great based on their individual brilliance and standing in the game but team success would have taken them to another level.
jutsie
Guest
Probably being a little hard on lloyd there but he really did tail off in the latter part of his career and there are so many Full forwards ahead of him in the discussion.
jutsie
Guest
I always get frustrated with All Blacks supporters when it comes to discussion of who is the current best / or all time greatest player in a position. Yes this current All Blacks team is probably the greatest national rugby team of all time and McCaw one of the candidates for best 7, captain and possiblly player of all time but that does not mean every AB players in that team is a candidated for best in their position. Same rules applies to any other team sport. Im a bombers supporter and as good as that 2000 team was only Hird, Lloyd, Fletcher and maybe wellman were candidates for best player in their position in that season, and as for all time great probably only Hird / Fletcher.
Doc Disnick
Roar Guru
I'd take Dunstall over Lockett, but Ablett was simply...well God like.
Doc Disnick
Roar Guru
No one has dominated a single sport like MJ... no one! Still the best presser I've seen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHtEahBGomo First thing a student psychologist should watch when it comes to the power of positive thinking.
Brian
Guest
I'm not sure, Dunstall won a lot more then Lockett or Ablett yet the latter two are regarded above him Hawthorn supporters like us aside. Ablett was a poor trainer and I doubt he could have been part of such success as Hawthorn had in the 80s without slackening off even more. Nonetheless to Joe Public he is considered the best of the three full forwards
Birdman
Guest
Team success drags the great to the next level of greatness IMHO.
Brian
Guest
In the realm of discussing the GOAT I'd say yes. MJ having won more then LeBron, Federer being ahead of Nadal Maradona having won a WC whilst Messi has not Carey & Mathews winning flags whilst Ablett and Lockett did not. Otherwise just in terms of being a great of a sport its generally irrelevant (apart from gold medals in the Olympic sports) Karl Malone was not the GOAT and neither was Scott Pippen or Shaq. No difference between them just cause Malone didn't get a ring.