What do football fans want from an Australian second division?

yes and no for a time lions fc and roar were the same club until the barkie group brought the the 2 became separate also if the 2nd div is all npl clubs the 2nd div is just going to be western sydney and melbourne because thats where all the "elite" npl clubs are, imo the 2nd div has to be a mix of npl sides as well as new franchises if the 2nd div is truly going to be a national competition

personally i think the ffa is using this 2nd div to push more sydney and melbourne clubs into the a-league so that the ffa and foxtel get what they want by having more sydney and melbourne teams in the a-league while keeping most of the old sokah fans happy provided there clubs get up, melbourne knights for example are opposed to the creation of new clubs/entities

I've changed my views a little bit. As long as there are no names like Brisbane Hollandia, its okay. So Roar are ethnic, but its okay in this case.

By your definition is Brisbane Roar is an ethnic club? It was founded by Dutch migrants.

you are sceptical because u say if A league teams are doing it tough than how will 2nd division survive ,well there is a massive support of anti A league in other words there is a lot of people who will follow a true national league one not tainted by bias and manufactured plastic teams ,real teams real history and not this A league that spends all its money on old geriatrics and has-beens from second and third division Europe all that money gone to waste, look at melb city geriatrics a couple at victory WSW, Adelaide, Brisbane who wants to watch that rubbish I love watching wellington this year natural young talent and an Australian coach bring it on and strait relegation and promotion no mercy you not good enough you arev relegated or you fight to the bitter end Brisbane and CC no intrest

To be sure I think Australian Rulers and Rugby League began thinking about it as far back as the 70s when the first ideas about national competitions may have been hatched - the same time the NBL and NSL were born. The key factor was the talent drain from other leagues to the VFL and NSWRL respectively, which also led to the introduction of State of Origin rules for representative games. The flow of talent to the VFL was possibly a factor in the financial mess that many of the clubs were in during the 80s. The AFL abandoned SOO 20 years ago but I know there are fans, especially in South Australia, who dearly miss it. Indeed it was often the most exquisite exponent of the sport in terms of quality (look up the 1994 SA v VIC contest). Interestingly, almost three decades after the AFL became a truly national competition, South Australian fans still turn out to the SANFL Grand Final in decent numbers. This kind of parochialism and certain cultural habits that characterise the Australian code in SA and VIC may have carried over into our sport. South Australian fans relish Adelaide United's rivalry with Melbourne Victory. Melbourne Victory fans buy memberships and go to games just as they do with AFL memberships and games.

Hi Beni, Q1. A club that plays five second division games will earn more revenue than a side that plays no games. The Big Bash sides have earned revenue despite having a short season. Q2&3. December and January and maybe one week either side, during the school holiday period and during the middle of the A-League season. Q4. No. They continue to play NPL during winter, FFA Cup games etc. So those 10 games are in addition to the 20-30 they already play. Q5. Look, I am coming at this from a fan’s perspective, not from the point of view of a business owner. Nevertheless, it strikes me that a few games earning big returns could be better than a long, drawn-out season making small returns. Better to have five games of 8,000 than thirteen games of 3,000. As a fan, I would probably attend five games. Each game would be an ‘event’. The longer the season goes on, the more games I will end up missing. Also, the more teams you have, the more you are going to have games of little consequence. Just a suggestion.

I agree on your last point, which is sometimes why I say to my friends on the Roar, be patient, it might take 100+ years before we start seeing some progress. I often tell the story that it was only after some 100 years of continuous existence that the AFL had the confidence to start planning for the future.

It's also telling that the EFL divisions are broadcast around the world, thus a reach unequalled by almost all the rest: https://www.efl.com/iFollow/international-broadcasters/ The key here is that the clubs in Europe and South America have the wealth of history and tradition behind them that is a gravitational pull for audiences. Every club tells its story on and off the field. These are stories created from the ground up, not manufactured for publicity stunts the A-League seems addicted to.

Speaking of a 2nd Division, Dominic Bossi has written a good article in the SMH about the deliberations of the New Leagues Working Group. Bossi dedicates a good portion of the article to a proposed 2nd division. Quote: " ...establishing a second tier could serve as the eventual platform for promotion relegation in the distant future, though significant cost hurdles remain unanswered as well as professional standards." PFA chief John Didiluca is quoted as saying: without elite performance environments and salaries offered in a second division "we are just getting NPL on planes". Of course it's worth pointing out that the PFA will always have an interest in anything which increases their own membership, i.e. more professional footballers. So they aren't going to support a 2nd tier, where, for example, the clubs are only semi-professional. So two key points: - whatever happens (and Bossi expresses doubts that it will happen in a hurry), we are not talking about cobbling together NPL clubs and having them operate at an NPL level; and - it goes without saying, that P&R is way, way in the future, it's way off the radar at the moment.

Very nice summary of things David V. You are right that if there is one country you would want to avoid in matters of sports administration and governance, it's definitely Italy (but a few other European nations wouldn't be too far behind). The English system is quite extraordinary in terms of the level of support all the way down the tiers. The bigger 3rd tier clubs have huge support. Probably unrealistic for anyone else in the world to replicate, especially if starting from scratch, much less a country like Australia.

England introduced its Second Division in 1892, and a Third in 1920 and a Fourth (after reorganisation) in 1958. After World War II, the rate of attrition of clubs was rather low - the bottom four applied for reelection every year by the other 88 members of the 92 (I've heard it is a matter of public record as to who voted for who!), and there were only a few changes in membership prior to the introduction of automatic promotion/relegation in 1987. Still, something has to be said for the stability of the English league system that the EFL Championship, League One and League Two are well-attended and generate higher revenues than their equivalents elsewhere. Germany is the one country that can rival England for depth of support down the divisions with the 2. Bundesliga, 3.Liga and Regionalliga, who contain some quite pedigreed (i.e. ex-Bundesliga) clubs in their ranks. Other European nations can't quite match this, in fact Italy has an eminently chaotic state of affairs in its Serie C and D, and Serie B was affected by club bankruptcies before the start of this season.

Um. Just a question. How much revenue is a club playing 5 home games going to generate? Also, how long is that season? 3 months? So the team takes a break for 9 months? Just what is your estimate of much revenue this team is going to make? Or that league with only 10 rounds? Interested to know how much revenue you expect a league to generate based on those metrics.

yep to much work and posting in-between clients.. The point I was making is and you have picked up on is the media gatekeepers in the US are so bad they have stopped trying to appease them and instead have gone for the long game in laying the seeds for a gradual increase as generational change takes place... also hoping that the kids today will follow their local MLS team rather than their parents Mexican team as an example...

All the clubs say they welcome it when asked directly (without offering a time frame), but for as long as there exists the prospect of selling new licenses at $20 million a pop, do you honestly believe the club owners will forego the prospect of splitting up a $20 million windfall in favour of letting Hicksville United into the closed shop for nothing? (and you're only going to get the $20 million windfall if you're offering a seat at the top table - as long as the children remain at the little table - no one will pay $20 million for a seat at the kid's table). Saying you welcome something is very different to actually doing something concrete to make it happen. In the meantime, Nikou, Gallop and others talk of protecting the investment made by club owners (that's code for: don't expect the introduction of P&R any time soon - what current club owner who has already lost tens of millions of dollars wants to willingly get sent to the naughty corner? are you going to pay for a $20 million license fee if it means getting to the big dance for just one season?) We also get plenty of references to MLS on these pages. They've grown a lot over the past decade, about to grow from 24 teams to 28 teams. Sounds pretty good, they must have two divisions, but they don't - that's one single division. Why? Because you can sell license fees to the big dance at a hefty margin - and you only sell at that price if you''re selling a seat to the adult's table. As I said already, no one pays big to sit at the kids' table. Like the MLS, like the A-League, as long as the clubs can keep selling license fees for big dollars, there cannot be P&R. One day, that tap will run dry, and the clubs might eventually get round to bringing it in...but that's a long, long way off.

Good lord Midfielder - you need an editor for your posts as badly as I do. I like the point you make about taking generations to shift the market. The way the MLS is growing, sometime in the not too distant future the huge amounts of money going to other US sport might tip US Football’s way. If that happens some of the flow of talent to Europe might well shift to the US. The same could easily happen in Asia. Who knows what Brexit will do to the EPL, but if it goes as badly as some predict the balance might shift towards the US and Asia quicker than expected.

Con Do you really want football to be reffered to as "wogball" again. Because i'm afraid that is what will happen if ethnic clubs are allowed into the A-League or 2nd division. And in terms of meeting my dad.... Well he doesn't know anything about Football but if you really want to meet him, come to Perth and i'll organise it.

I don't know how you get away with your ethnicity remarks all the time why don't you hatch out of your egg first before you learn to crow ,and as for your father well I would love to meet him and tell him what I think of his smart little non ethnicity son I cant believe this forum lets you get away with the rubbish you write

It would be pretty horrifying if Nogarotto and co weren’t well informed about the finances.

hey Jordan how about shut you trap