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The Roar

Redondo

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Joined May 2017

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Sadly true of most Manu games nowadays. I prefer watching Man City, even Liverpool.

Sydney derbies, Caitlin Foord and Matt Simon entertain, Archie Thompson does not

I don’t know if it was Jim Beglin or Peter Drury commentating the Manu vs L’pool match, but whoever it was sounded like they were channeling Winston Churchill. The over-dramatisation was nauseating.

Sydney derbies, Caitlin Foord and Matt Simon entertain, Archie Thompson does not

Delbridge always plays pretty impressively – I suspect he gets overlooked because everyone thinks he’s American.

We know about Aussies abroad, but what about Aussies at home?

The two Westerns already have me planning trips to Melbourne and Parramatta.

The A-League finally has a derby to rival Europe

Mike – your comment about the quality this year is spot on. Most teams have picked up really good quality imports and promoted a few young Aussies with surprisingly good skills. Overall the quality looks really good.

Best imports to watch so far are Schwegler, Noone, Diamanti and Kone. Given a few more games, Meier should be a standout for WSW – his mobility improved markedly in just one week.

If Rhyan Grant was Dutch he’d be in that list too.

The A-League finally has a derby to rival Europe

If SFC’s midfield defence doesn’t improve WSW will have a wonderful night. Whatever happens it should be a great occasion.

The A-League finally has a derby to rival Europe

You didn’t watch the game did you

Six talking points from A-League Round 2

An old silent pond…
A frog jumps into the pond,
splash! Silence again.

So now we’re complaining about VAR getting decisions right? A response to Simon Hill

Currently, it’s so slow they could take statements from the witnesses before making a decision.

So now we’re complaining about VAR getting decisions right? A response to Simon Hill

Yep. The focus is warped – the VAR should only be used to ensure there are no obviously wrong decisions, and that’s all. And it should happen as close to real-time as possible. If it takes more than 30 seconds to throw doubt on a decision then there isn’t enough doubt to overturn the decision.

So now we’re complaining about VAR getting decisions right? A response to Simon Hill

Which is kind of my point – how much contact does the passer have to make with the ball before they are deemed to have ‘touched’ it. Is it a bootlace touch, or the boot itself, or is it when there is a clear impact bend on the ball? Is it the ref’s call or does the software judge that contact? Who knows. Short of reading the specs for the software and the instructions to the ref nobody knows.

In fact, I’d love to read the software specs – I’m guessing a lot of statistical hypothesising happens in the software processing – and that’s just another form of subjectivity.

The vendors of this software have a vested interest in presenting things as ‘fact’ that are simply not ‘fact’.

So now we’re complaining about VAR getting decisions right? A response to Simon Hill

‘Just as the Hawkeye technology now makes it clear and obvious when the ball is 2cm over the goal-line or 20cm over, it also now makes it clear and obvious when someone is offside by any distance.’

That is unbelievably naive.

These are 2 very different things. For goal-line decisions, the technology is relatively uncomplicated. Deciding if the ball has crossed the goal-line comes down to a single frame in which you compare the ball’s position against a stationary line. That’s it.

Offsides are far more complicated – the passer is moving, the ball is moving, the attacker is moving and the last defender is moving. Critically, the cameras only record all that movement as still shots taken once every .02 seconds (it might be less but nobody is saying).

The single frame selected to prove offside is just the first frame that seems to show the passer touching the ball. They might have actually touched the ball a fraction of a second before, but between two frames captured by the camera.

So, the VAR ref has just two frames to go on – a frame where there is daylight between the passer and the ball and a frame where there is none. It’s not clear how many photons wide that gap must be but I guess the VAR ref makes that call. That’s subjective judgement one.

If he then bases the offside call on the second photon-free-gap frame he is making a second subjective judgement that the receiver and last defender could have not moved sufficiently between the two frames to account for any millimetres the attacker is ‘offside’ in the second frame.

This decision is not objective: it depends on technology with unspecified margins of error and judgement calls about things the VAR ref and the ref can’t see but have to imagine.

The only fair way to use such technology would be to base offside decisions on the positions of the attacking receiver and last defender in the last frame before the passer contacted the ball.

That is still a little subjective but at least gives the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team and would eliminate the repeated and falsely objective millimetre level decisions that are blighting the game.

So now we’re complaining about VAR getting decisions right? A response to Simon Hill

Tell us what you think of this Nick: https://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/premier-coup-former-epl-boss-scudamore-signs-on-to-help-a-league-20191015-p530x8.html

Dear A-League fans, it's time to take off the rose-coloured glasses

Bozza – can you send me the link where you got your Hawkeye stats? I am genuinely interested to know about this.

Regarding the engineering complex – software engineering has one of the highest failure rates of any engineering profession, and a select band of failed software projects have contributed to some of the largest commercial failures in history.

For example: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/18/nhs-records-system-10bn. There are lots more like that if you care to google around.

Anyone who has worked in software engineering – and I have for decades – knows that the profession lurches from fad to fad because it has no idea what works and what doesn’t.

Sure, software engineers have built a lot of very good stuff – the problem is nobody is ever quite sure which project will succeed and which will fail. That’s not how engineering is supposed to work.

Love it or hate it, VAR was spot on during A-League Round 1

Absolutely Griffo. In the meantime, let the refs make their call and only overturn if there is a clear and obvious error. If the decision falls within the technology’s margin of error then the ref’s decision should stand.

Sydney vs Adelaide provided examples of two common scenarios. Adelaide’s denied goal (but then overturned and awarded) was a clear and obvious error, even allowing for the technology’s margin of error.

Sydney’s awarded (but overturned) goal was not a clear and obvious error because the offside decision was within the technology’s margin of error. It should not have been overturned.

The problem is the refs are assuming the technology is infallible when it isn’t. The displayed frame on which the decision is made may be quite misleading.

There are too many variables in play to make millimetre level decisions: when was the ball ‘kicked’, how far would the last defender have moved away from goal between frames, how far would the attacker have moved towards goal between frames etc.

Not to mention the software doing the work – it requires a complex triangulation of multiple camera angles to estimate the location of moving bodies in 3d space. Worse, the software is written by software engineers, who work in the least reliable of the engineering professions.

Love it or hate it, VAR was spot on during A-League Round 1

Your Kosta was pretty good the other night. And he scored too.

Love it or hate it, VAR was spot on during A-League Round 1

Just being provocative Waz.

The match should stop during the VAR process

It may not be going anywhere but it will definitely have to be used better.

Love it or hate it, VAR was spot on during A-League Round 1

I’d have to go through them all again but from memory the only ‘clear and obvious’ error was the Adelaide goal called offside.

I thought the sending off for the foul on Le Fondre was a clear and obvious error too – minimal contact. I’m not sure if the VAR ref can reverse decisions like that but they should.

The match should stop during the VAR process

Matthew – the fundamental problem is that we are relying on a digital technology to answer an analog question. I’d love someone to redraw the Barbarouses offside showing how far he moved between the offside frame and the frame before. He was travelling full-speed, so close to 10 metres per second – I bet the previous frame would have him clearly onside.

Love it or hate it, VAR was spot on during A-League Round 1

Just imagine the look on Corica’s face when he discovered Barbarouses takes 20 secs to cover 100 metres.

Reds boss slams VAR

Yes – a ‘1 mm howler’ just doesn’t sound right.

VAR has changed football, but we only have ourselves to blame

And as I say, in this case they got it wrong, which makes the point of the VAR somewhat dubious.
I don’t say this as a SFC fan – quite a few VARred offside calls have given me the $hits. Decisions are being made on margins much finer than the technology allows.

VAR has changed football, but we only have ourselves to blame

Wade – absolutely correct regarding ‘clear and obvious’.

VAR has changed football, but we only have ourselves to blame

The ref needs help – the VAR display should highlight the distance the player could have moved between the critical two frames.

In Barbarouses’ case most of that highlighted area would have been onside, particularly given the last defender was moving in the opposite direction as well.

VAR has changed football, but we only have ourselves to blame