Do titles matter to the GOAT?

Well Ron Willey, I suppose he would know after coaching in the BRL for all those many years. Yes we are done here.

NSW coach, Ron Willey did. Look it up. So Wally had to win every GF every year did he? Which esteemed player has won every GF in every season they played? FFS mate, you're just making it up now. For the final time, it's your opinion, you've offered nothing to support your position and we will never agree. We're done here.

What Sydney experts agree that the BRL was the same standard as the NSWRL? I never heard any of them state it? Send me some proof. Nat, you are living in a fictional world. That Wynnum team with Wally captaining didn't even make the Grand Final the following year in 1987 playing in a 2nd tier competition so how does add weight to his greatness?

I put together from your statements that you've focused on a very small part of the BRL 85 - 87. If you truly watched a few games, especially Wally in the Wynnum team and still wonder if the quality matched NSWRL I cannot do much for you. Even the Sydney experts agree but you don't. Like I said, we are never going to agree.

I was working in Bindha for Golden Circle in 1985-87 staying in shared accomodation in Spring Hill with a bunch of guys. One of which had come down from Townsville to play for Brothers. We used to go to see him play most weekends playing with smokin Joe Kilroy. They beat Redcliffe in the 1987 BRL final. I remember this guy educating me that they didn't have a summer or winter in Townsville. They had a wet & dry season. I remember that 1986 Wynnum -Manly side you previously referred to & this huge young man playing for Easts named Martin Bella. Way above sized for that comp so we all knew he wasn't going to stay there long. North Sydney signed him up I think so he headed south like so many other good players did. So yes I can say I saw a fair bit of the BRL around the time Wally was playing in Brisbane.

I'm not trying to back up anything, as I said we are never going to agree. The difference is I've been around long enough to watch both. How much BRL was broadcast down your way? Yours is just another NSW opinion and you are entitled to it.

Nico, Wally also knocked back an offer from the Roosters in about 1982/83. What was written in Sydney was that Lewis/Mortimer went into the 1982 Kangaroo tour as the first-choice halves combination. Both players weren’t happy when they missed selection in the first test over Kenny/Sterling. Due to ongoing tour test success neither of them got a look in the remaining 2 tests. Understandably this left a poor taste in Wally’s mouth. He said stuff the NSWRL, I am going to stick to the BRL. I can understand this. Mortimer came back & captained NSW to it’s first Origin series win in 1985. Lewis proved unstoppable at Origin level after that. But if Wally had come to Sydney in 1983 & dominated for the next 6-7 years, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. BTW, in 1983 a Five Eight won the won the Dally M player of the year whilst playing in a team that won the wooden spoon. That feat will never be repeated. His name was Terry Lamb. You think Wally would not have wanted a Daly M player of the year in his resume?

Nat, nothing you state in your previous comments backs up your theory that the BRL wasn't a weaker competition. Surely you have enough common sense to realise that the single fact that the majority of the BRL's better players were continually moving south sends it well beyond speculation. BTW, Chris Close didn't stay in Brisbane. After winning a man of the match award in an early origin, he signed for Manly in 1982 & played there for quite a few seasons before he struggled to make first grade. After a season of playing reserve grade he went to the Gold Coast in 1988. That's were Wally ended up, didn't he? Like most Queenslanders you put it all down to interstate bias but I state the best halfback I have seen play is Jonathon Thurston, not Andrew Johns. The best fullback is Billy Slater & the GOAT is Cameron Smith. He played against the best players week in & week & has dominated the world's strongest Rugby League competition for an extended period of time. Besides the 1982 Kangaroo tour, Wally did dominate representative football during the 80s & he was fantastic in all of those 4 or 5 games in each of those years.

I think we have to be cautious about labeling competitions stronger or weaker. If we compare the old NSWRL to the current NRL, the current professional and 'National' competition is hands down the stronger article. But this doesn't mean we aren't going to count what players did pre-NRL. Anyone playing pre-1980 never tasted Origin which is the highest level of the sport, but no one is challenging Churchill, Raper or Messenger's greatness here. Mr Right, you argue that Wally 'decided' to stay in a weaker comp but again this point is contentious - Wally was signed up to play for Manly but the QRL blocked the deal from going ahead. Fact is, in the comps that Wally did play in, club level, England, Origin, test football, he managed to beat beat all-comers

We are never going to agree that the BRL was a 2nd tier comp, that's a NSWRL attitude not a reality. You cannot begrudge players for taking the money in NSW. Although you might want to qualify that '86 with the fact that most of those Sydney based players only went there that year or the year before. To your point about NSW seeking players from BRL. Again, it's financial, why would they come up here for less money. It's not a comment on the quality of the comp. To turn that around, of the Qld players sought after by NSWRL clubs, Fatty, Shearer, Mal, Belcher, Coyne, Jackson et al... all have leading roles in their NSWRL squads and were Aust reps. They are just the blokes who chose to go down. Wally, Miles, Dowling, Close, Conescu all Aust reps over their NSW couterparts and all playing BRL. Wally isn't Gagai, he didn't just rise up for origin. He was 20yo when they first thumped NSW in 1980 and already had a BRL premiership and runner up under his belt. Of course it's speculative on how he would have went but when every player, coach and knowledgable person lauded him as the best player they've played with or against, it's a better than fair chance he would have been just as dominant in any comp.

The BRL has always been a 2nd tier competition. That is why the ARL changed the rules for qualification of state games from what competition you were playing in, to were you played your first football. Remember, Origin was formed due to Queenslanders being sick of losing state games playing against NSWRL based Queenslanders. The BRL was always going to be more even due to the fact that there wasn’t a lot of money in Brisbane. Players who were serious about the coin didn’t go to other BRL clubs, they left to head south to Sydney. A more even spread of titles doesn’t have any relevance to how strong the competition is. You mentioned 1986, in origin game 2, 19 out of the starting 26 players on the field were playing for NSW clubs. If the BRL was that strong & had the best club in the country, why was Qld drawing half of its side from Sydney/ACT? NSW weren’t drawing any of its players from the BRL. BTW, the Blues won 3-0 that year. Could Wally have starred week in week out at club level against bigger & better players over a long career? Most likely, but we will never actually know, will we?

In my direct reply I wasn't only referring to premierships but titles of any nature. IMO the title of the article refers to what these titles mean to the GOAT as a person, not us bantering about their specific stats etc. To them, they are great but while playing, these guys focus on what's next, not past. That's for retirement. My reply to you was based on the 2nd part of your comment. You rightly point out that Wally didn't need to winan NRL title to be considered the GOAT but then you go on to say that he was playing in an inferior comp. That's what I am challenging you about. I'm sure Murray couldn't care that his name isn't bandied about in the same circles as his southern counterparts, his resume speaks volumes. To say they didn't face the same quality of players as NSWRL is just wrong. Surely dominating a best-of-the-best game exceeds what the best of the rest can put up on a weekly basis. TBF, the BRL, like NSWRL had stacked teams against obviously weaker clubs but if you go back and read Matth's series on the history of the BRL, you'll see a fairly even spread of premierships across the clubs. This culminated in the Brisbane combined side beating all contender NSW clubs in the 84 Panasonic Cup and the 86 Wynnum side widely recognised as the best RL team in the country.

Nat, re read the title of article, "Do titles matter to the GOAT?" You wrote a nice peace but but it wasn't relevant to what this article is about. I stated that you do not have to win a premiership title to be awarded the title of GOAT. What's your thoughts on this article subject?

It must be embarrassing that a 2nd tier comp dominated those huge, wonderful NSW players? Murray played in 4 winning Origin series, that's twice as many as Sterlo and 4x Tommy. Who else do you have? Wally Captained Aust from a Qld team - enough said. Qld are quite comfortable in the knowledge that NSW only talk up NSW and just because they are not household names down there doesn't mean much. Back then, like now, NSW can front up their biggest and best and get knocked down by Qld's nobodies yet every time it's a miracle. Wally is already an Immortal yet he's conjured up more "miracles" than Mother Teressa.

Tennis is not a good comparison because in football 1 player doesn't make a team & it's the team that wins the premiership, not the actual player. IMO, Wally didn't have to win a NRL premiership to be considered to be considered the GOAT. AFL's Tony Lockett is considered by all as the GOAT full forward but he never won a premiership. Not an issue. The point of difference is Lockett played against the biggest & best players in the game week in week out over 16 seasons, not just 3 times a year. The best opposition coaches tried to come with all sorts ways to limit his scoring but none of them had much success. Wally played in a 2nd tier competition, he didn't have those huge forward packs of Balmain, Manly, St George, Parramatta, Bulldogs etc constantly charging at him over 10-12 seasons. Rellum you state that the BRL was the equal to the Sydney comp? For the first 5 origin series the best halfback the BRL produced was Mark Murray. How do footy experts rate him compared to the better NRL half backs of the same era? Raudonikas, Sterling, Mortimer, Hasler etc. Whilst the BRL did contain some very good players, it didn’t have the same size & depth of quality players as the NSWRL. I am not saying that Wally didn’t have the ability to awarded the GOAT, I am saying that a legitimate process couldn’t award him that honour due his decision to stay & play in a lesser league during his career.

The other side to that argument is that while he won the GS in 1962 many of the stronger players were professional and therefore not playing against him. When he did turn professional, players like Rosewall regularly beat him - would he have got the first GS if they were playing? Rosewall was out for 10 years - 40 majors,

Yeah that goes for the English comps as well, the English league was equal if not stronger than the Sydney comp for much of its existence, it's a bit of an injustice that players like Brian Bevan with 757 tries in 670 games barely even get a look in to immortals debates

A quick check on Mal's "record" and his QRL achievements are there for all to see.

God the Sydney arrogance is breath taking at times. "Does not having won the domestic club showpiece diminish his standing in the game even though he is an Immortal?" The BRL was the equal of the Sydney comp as in both were where internationals were picked from. It was a top tier League, the top BRL teams at the time were equal to the Sydney teams, if not better as it was a golden age for the comp. Even Mal says there was little difference. Do you not count Man Utd's titles in the 90's even though the EPL was not the best league in the world at that time? It is a embarrassment that the BRL titles and records are not included in players records, despite the issues with the flood.