Wallabies great Phil Kearns has backed Rugby Australia’s chairman Hamish McLennan’s assault on the relationship with New Zealand and said the Kiwis have treated Australia “pretty poorly” over the past two decades.
McLennan has threatened to withdraw Australia from Super Rugby competition against NZ teams from 2024. He has been subject to a backlash from NZ commentators and officials, and doubled down on his statement, telling the Sydney Morning Herald the Kiwis were “poor partners”.
Kearns, who worked closely with McLennan as head of Australia’s successful bid to host the World Cups in 2027 and 2029, gave strong support for his stance as he appeared on the Roar Rugby Podcast.
Phil Kearns joins the pod to discuss the shaky trans-Tasman alliance and much more. Stream it here or on your podcast app of choice
“Hamish has done a fabulous job. He’s very decisive. He has a terrific vision. He knows the values of the game and the history of the game and he thinks about that and he’s not scared,” Kearns said.
“If that call upsets someone… if it’s right for Australian rugby he’ll do it.
“It’s really important that we’re not pandering to the rest of the world, we’re actually trying to partner with the rest of the world.”
He said he was aligned with messaging of McLennan and CEO Andy Marinos “because we want the same thing and that’s the growth of Australian rugby.
“There’s no agenda, there’s nothing else out there except the growth and success of Australian rugby.”
The potential split boils down to a share of revenue, with Australia receiving approximately $30 million in broadcast revenue, to the Kiwis’ $90m share.
Phil Kearns (Photo by Getty Images)
“Does it sound like a good deal to you? You want to be a good partner with New Zealand, we both need each other and not just this constant sniping,” Kearns said.
“New Zealand have treated us pretty poorly over the last 15 to 20 years. To be fair, we haven’t been very good both off the field and on the field.
“In many instances our administration has been poor and whether some of that decision-making has been driven by whoever the CEO was at the time or the board I don’t know and it doesn’t matter but we weren’t getting the right results for Australian rugby.
“We haven’t been winning as much as we’d like to win and that doesn’t help.
“Australia, we just want a fair deal. I think it’s right that we do play against New Zealand but if it’s not the right deal for us we’ll go do something else.
“The world of rugby is changing and the world is changing. If you think of where we are now, the growth of women’s rugby, the rise of Japan, hopefully the rise of USA because of them getting the World Cup will be a huge growth factor, we see Amazon, Google, Stan coming in as streaming services, the global rugby world has changed.”
Asked what the best scenario for Australia was, Kearns said: “We probably don’t know what’s best.
“We thought Super Rugby was going to be the best for our game and we’ve seen our results over the Tri-Nations and Rugby Championship not being anywhere near as good as what we’d like them to be.
“So was that the best way to go? When we won the World Cup in 1991 we did only have domestic competitions. It was only NSW and Queensland, it was club footy.
“If you look at where England are, they only have club footy and then they go to Test footy. That model can work. Is it right for Australia? I don’t know, we’ve got to experiment.
“If the deal is we only get $30m and they get $90, then maybe having just a domestic comp we could make $40m, or $50m and we do a better deal on our own. I know it’s not just about money but you have to run the game. we need to have the grassroots going as well, and you do need money to do that.”
Rugby is in a difficult spot in the Australian market, well behind rugby league and AFL, but Kearns was bullish when asked if landing a big event like the RWC was crucial to getting a win over league.
“We win over league every week,” Kearns said. “We have a different game with different values, that’s what’s special about our game.
“The other thing that’s special about our game is if you are the best player in the world in rugby league or AFL you’re only the best player in Australia.
“But if you are the best player in the world in rugby you are the best player in the world, there’s no doubt about it. 120 countries play our game and that’s special.
“We do win every time. We don’t have the money they do here but if you look at the way our game’s growing globally, particularly the growth of women in our sport is a really important factor.”
Phil on the front foot
Crouch, bind, set. Phil Kearns packs down with Brett McKay and Harry Jones on The Roar Rugby podcast, brings the heat from the start and never lets off as he discusses his “bad boy” status, the future of Australia in Super Rugby, the successful RWC bids he led and even how he wants Quade Cooper to play against the Poms.
The two-time World Cup winner – four if you count his leadership of the 2027 and 2029 RWC hosting bids – led the way as rugby turned pro in the 1990s and rattled the age of the previous RA administration with his part in the infamous ‘captain’s letter.’
Brett started a fascinating chat with a nice easy question about if Kearns was missing the week-in week-out role as a match commentator that he held with Fox Sports.
“Well, I’m not missing The Roar shitcan me all the time. I don’t know what I did to those blokes, who are they!?,” he laughs.
Alright then…
The next 50 minutes are a fascinating insight into Kearns’ view on the state of the game and the biggest issues in it, from the admin offices to the on-field arena.
ShaghaiDoc
Roar Rookie
After several decades of the Kiwis propping us up financially, we thanked them by sabotaging their RWC. Now we are playing the victim? Public schoolboy drama queens wasting our money on illiterate Leaguies and Jesus Freaks.
Micko
Roar Rookie
And what happens when NZ's provincial unions need more cash, sell off more NZR income to PE for another sugar hit?! A completely unsustainable model! :thumbdown:
Micko
Roar Rookie
I'm convinced it will. The current SR system is practically the worst one that could've been designed for the Aus market.
Riddler
Guest
Kearns was a great competitive player but really some of those comments, it just reinforces how out of touch these Rugby Officials really are! Banging on about the Kiwis getting more money from the Broadcast Deal that they negotiated, it's like an 80yr old actor complaining about a 30yr old actor getting all the action hero roles. And then carrying on about how Rugby's international spread somehow transfers more legitimacy and attractiveness to the sport is an old worn out trope that is a "Fools Gold". That isn't going to attract players or keep players. The perception in the real world outside this corporate, leather patch old school tie brigade is that League (at least locally) is the wave of the future, a dynamic innovative game (probably too innovative in some aspects) whilst Rugby is increasingly seen as an old white man's game played to ancient complex rules that even avid followers find hard to comprehend. The ARU would be best served by sacking all these ex-players and actually recruiting administrator's from a non-rugby background. They need new fresh perspectives on running and promoting the game. The same dumbheads who got us involved in the Super 12 and then thought it a good idea to introduce Melbourne and Perth when there wasn't anywhere near the player depth to support those clubs, whilst also seeing the only Western Sydney team in Penrith go under are still the same dumbheads in charge. Rugby has no chance of every usurping League or AFL as the preeminent week to week competition, but it can carve itself a respectable and sustainable third tier position which will hopefully strengthen our Wallabies on the international stage and afford Rugby some good exposure on the national stage when tests matches are played. AT the moment with the same old officials and the same old selling tropes about Rugby "culture" and "world wide game" will only see this game fall further behind. With Sth Africa increasingly focused on Europe and NZ perhaps starting to look to its own, Australia could very well find itself the pariah of World Rugby like the old days of the 1950's and 1960's when we played fewer tests, cause it just wasn't seen as worthwhile to travel all that way to play us.
G money
Roar Rookie
I don't think the average kiwi realises how big the afl is here and how little most ppl care about rugby
G money
Roar Rookie
Generalising here but the majority of nz rugby fans are arrogant and obnoxious
G money
Roar Rookie
Spot on dr.. I hope it happens. but my fear is the suits will get greedy and add international franchises. for this to have any chance it has to be Australia only
G money
Roar Rookie
please leave.. the sooner the better!
Ross Leahy
Guest
Nz did a deal for broadcast in NZ where most of the games were local derbies Aus did their deal with Fox on the same basis. 75%/25% seems a reasonable split. NZ should be subsiding Aus?
Rojgarner
Guest
The elephant in the room...Super Rugby does not "work" for Australia because Australian Super Rugby teams are not competitive. Aussies don't like watching a losing side. In contrast when the Wallabies won the world cup in 1991, grassroot player registrations soared. I believe RA needs to look at the grass roots pathways for potential Wallabies. Right now unless young players either go to a very expensive private school or move to Sydney or Brisbane, they have little or no chance of progressing up the ladder to higher levels. At least a quarter of all of Australia's rugby players cannot progress to higher levels no matter how good they are without significant financial support that so many just don't have.
Muzzo
Roar Rookie
What simpletons we have in & around RA, with the likes of Kearns, a known bad loser, coming out with this garbage. Evidently he doesn't remember, how a few decades ago the NZRFU, financed a Wallaby tour, & supplied all the jersey's for them, due to financial difficulties. He's just another loose cannon.
Renzeau
Roar Rookie
True it is a crazy landscape in rugby today. I feel you need done level of confidence as there is a lot at stake. I’m confident with Foster, the NZ public put far to much reverence on one person to fix everything. NZRFU yes I’m happy with the direction we are going especially now we have the Silverlake deal. You a right the Chairman of RA has to act in their best interest. Please do it with dignity and class.
Brian Westlake
Roar Rookie
And next year? The viewing reach goes from 26m Aust and nz 5m to 5m. A reduction of 80% I think they may come visiting to nz rugby saying “boys, lets have a look at what you’ve done here…”
Brian Westlake
Roar Rookie
Except the classic snowflake kiwi.
ozziedude
Roar Rookie
Should it have to sound confident to be more pertinent? That’s what you take from my post? Who in world rugby has any confidence in anything these days with the international/ club landscape and rules changing constantly…are you confident in the Nzru and Fozzie… The point is the Ra CEO is doing his/ her job finally and questioning the best way forward in the domestic quagmire that is rugby in Australia, and that itself is to be applauded.
ozziedude
Roar Rookie
Rightio, and so it goes on..you guys are just too funny… theres nothing remotely controversial or perplexing about my posts, yet there was felt a need to nitpick and twist them, now moving the goalposts with all the well known problems faced by Oz rugby and anti- Kearns snipes. Like I said at the start theres nothing wrong a partner questioning a relationship, unless it seems, its Ra.. if that triggers sensitive kiwis/ kiwis in Oz, they should probably grow up a tad.. in the interest of common sense thats it from me..
OtakiCraig
Roar Rookie
Obviously Sky Sports cared, $90 mil worth of care hahaha
Mick t
Guest
Significant point would be… why is the payment share not equal? State the reason why it is what it is. No point bleating “i want more!” Then review the reason and act/discuss that point. If you deserve it.. you should get it
Tim J
Roar Rookie
Your ignorance makes up for your lack of memory.
Paulo
Roar Rookie
Given the monumental lack of investment into grassroots. The blowing of the RWC win fall. The lack of success from the expansion of the Rebels and Force to really grow the game in those states in a significant way. The constant in fighting and back stabbing within RA and the self interested Sydney clubs. I’d say RA and the rugby clubs, have been their own worst enemy. I say the history is revisionist because it’s painted as blaming it all on NZR. All NZR have really done, is look out for NZR and it’s own constituents. A value that is apparently laudable. I agree NZR has looked out for its own interests, and don’t have a problem with RA doing the same. All I’m saying is there seems to be a lot of finger pointing and very little ownership on RAs, and Kearns part. We won’t ever agree on this I don’t think. So I’m going to walk away. Let’s just see what plays out.