Last chance for NZ's Rennie generation, Boks' edge of experience: Which teams are peaking on 'strong side' of the draw

By JD Kiwi / Roar Rookie

Rugby nations can’t truly peak for every World Cup. In any country some generations will be better than others and when those generations reach their peak that’s their best chance.

If you think of a bell shaped normal distribution curve from high school maths, a golden generation will go up the curve as it gains more experience of playing Test rugby and improves cohesion by playing more rugby together. Then as bodies slow down they will go down the curve until a fresh golden generation comes along and a new cycle begins.

In two articles we will see where on the curve each of the major rugby nations is in terms of physical peak and cohesion. That will help us assess who will be likely to perform better than usual at this World Cup.

First we will look at the main teams on the “strong side” of the draw, in order of where they are on the curve. Next time we’ll look at the “weak” side.

But remember – some nations tend to be stronger than others regardless of where they both are on the curve. And all sorts of other factors will have an impact such as coaching, injuries, the draw and how things go on the day. This is just another, often underestimated, angle.

ITALY – WE’VE ONLY JUST BEGUN

After over 20 years of Six Nations cellar dwelling, a golden generation is finally emerging. With the likes of wunderkind fullback Ange Capuozzo only debuting last year we can’t expect too much of them just yet, but look out for them if they get a decent draw in the next two Cups.

Having said that, they have a great cohesion advantage for such a young team, with the golden generation having been brought through by Kieran Crowley at Benetton. Crowley now coaches Italy and with the players and coach knowing each other so well they have already beaten Wales and Australia.

Crowley being forced out after the tournament by the FIR could cost them in the medium term though. Ungrateful – and potentially damaging.

FRANCE – EVEN THE OLDIES AREN’T THAT EXPERIENCED

Experience wins World Cups and, compared to the rest of the Big Four, France is a pauper.

Whereas Ireland, South Africa and New Zealand have 1,300-1,500 caps each, France has just 829. Even the 2019 Springboks had 1,068 and they supposedly won the Cup four years ahead of schedule. The not-quite-ready 2007 All Blacks had 1,004.

Individually, after Gael Fickou with 81 caps, the next highest is 53 and only eight players participated in the last World Cup. Even the seven players in their 30s only average thirty caps. This could cost them when the real heat comes on, although all that success and natural talent make them genuine contenders and the large Toulouse contingent in the likely first fifteen gives them good cohesion.

With only two players aged 31+ this is a team with another World Cup in it. That and a succession of successful age group teams in recent years mean that better chances should lie ahead.

SCOTLAND FINALLY HAS A TEAM

Scotland has its golden generation moving nicely towards their peak in 2023 with nearly all of its top players aged 26-30 and Finn Russell now a mature 30 year old maestro. Of course, this is possibly the least organic crop in the Cup with nearly half the squad born overseas, nine of them having represented another country at some level or another.

With so many relatively recent arrivals in the country they don’t have that many more caps than France (1,014) and they are most unfortunate to be drawn against Ireland and South Africa in pool play. That has to greatly diminish what should have been their big chance to go deep. Their main advantage is cohesion with no less than 28 players from the two Scottish professional clubs.

And it must be remembered that they aren’t the rugby nation they once were – even this best Scottish team for over twenty years hasn’t been close to winning a Six Nations.

IRELAND – THE FOREVER QUARTERFINALISTS COULD TAKE IT ALL

With an average of forty caps each yet most of their best players aged between 27 and 31, it’s hard to imagine a better age and experience profile. Complemented by the wily old foxes Johnny Sexton, Peter O’Mahony & Conor Murray, and the younger Dan Sheehan, Caelan Doris & Mack Hansen, it’s almost the perfect mix.

Mack Hansen of Ireland attempts to keep the ball in play during the Bank of Ireland Nations Series match between Ireland and Australia at the Aviva Stadium in Dublin. (Photo By David Fitzgerald/Sportsfile via Getty Images)

They also have outstanding cohesion having played many Tests together, with a well established gameplan. Eighteen of the 33 play for Leinster and most of the others Munster, with the rest from the other two Irish provinces. All clubs in the same centralised system, which makes sure that their players are not burnt out with too many fixtures.

With everything in their favour this is Ireland’s best ever chance to prove that it has graduated to the ranks of the great rugby nations.

SOUTH AFRICA – POSSIBLY PAST THEIR PEAK BUT STILL SO STRONG TOGETHER

No rugby nation has so successfully kept together a golden generation as this one. Even after provisionally losing Lood De Lager, Handre Pollard and Lukhanyo Am, no less than 16 of the world cup winning 23 are off to France and likely to be in the top team once again. These are men who know how to play together – nine of them since the Meyer era – which gives the world number twos a huge cohesion advantage.

Age wise they are in unchartered territory, with the 25-29 year olds from 2019 now 29-33 and three players even older. An incredible 17 of the likely 23 are in their 30s. Even the previous Dad’s Army winning teams of 2015 and 2003 only had eight each.

Still, is 32-33 really that old? Or will having so few young legs, especially in the forwards, make them tire during the three consecutive weeks of knockouts? Time will tell.

NEW ZEALAND – THE LAST CHANCE FOR RENNIE’S GENERATION

The Rennie/Anscombe golden generation of winning World Under 20s alumni was always in the shadow of the McCaw generation. Even when it helped them win two World Cups. It’s never dominated the All Blacks quite like the Meyer/Coetzee South Africans have dominated the Springboks and now there are only six of its members left.

This is a team a long way past the peak of its generational cycle as it transitions from one golden generation to, hopefully, another. Nine players including the goldens are in their 30s and at the other end of the scale no less than 17 of the squad have less than 30 caps and six are in single figures. It’s also a team in flux, with the front row, centre and outside back combinations all pretty new. The main European contenders Ireland and France have far more players at the “right” age and their cohesion score is better. South Africa’s cohesion score is in the stratosphere.

Will Jordan of the All Blacks is tackled during the The Rugby Championship & Bledisloe Cup match between the Australia Wallabies and the New Zealand All Blacks at Melbourne Cricket Ground on July 29, 2023 in Melbourne, Australia. (Photo by Robert Cianflone/Getty Images)

On the other hand, it has more youthful legs than its great southern rivals. And even a mediocre kiwi generation can boast the likes of Will Jordan, Jordie Barrett, Rieko Ioane, Richie Mo’unga, Ardie Savea, Shannon Frizell and Scott Barrett, all now around the peak of their powers. This isn’t the All Blacks’ best opportunity, but it’s far from Mission Impossible.

VERDICT

So who has the best chance to emerge from the “strong side” of the draw to win the World Cup?

Italy are a smaller rugby nation with a very inexperienced team. Scotland are around their peak but also aren’t one of the big kids and have a terrible draw. New Zealand’s best players are old yet the team lacks cohesion in some areas. France falls well short of the experience levels that have won 21st century World Cups.

Which leaves Ireland and South Africa. The Springboks have incredible forward power, depth and cohesion so must stand a good chance, even though 17 players in their 30s is unchartered territory for World Cup Winners.

Ireland’s golden generation is at its peak with excellent cohesion and world leading coaching. This is a unique opportunity, even if it remains to see whether they have put their history of World Cup failure behind them and graduated to the very top table of rugby nations.

So it’s Ireland or South Africa for me, without either looking dead certs. But what do you think?

The Crowd Says:

2023-09-28T08:44:43+00:00

Brendan NH Fan

Roar Rookie


Crowley wants Italy to run the ball all the time which is fine but the new coach will be better and giving them the pragmatism which is what they need now. We will see what happens but think Crowley has taken them as far as he can. I am sure Crowley will get a job somewhere else.

AUTHOR

2023-09-28T06:07:27+00:00

JD Kiwi

Roar Rookie


One has the worst record for 30 years. The other has a 30% better record than his four predecessors. Absolutely no comparison.

2023-09-27T21:33:15+00:00

Brendan NH Fan

Roar Rookie


Not getting sacked, just not being renewed. Foster has won all the RCs in his time, what's a few losses to teams you've never lost to before.

AUTHOR

2023-09-27T20:43:50+00:00

JD Kiwi

Roar Rookie


Come off it Brendan, all of that is clutching at straws. Foster has by far the worst winning percentage since the early 90s, Crowley better than the previous four coaches there is absolutely no comparison. You go on about his successor doing well in a competition that nobody cares about (until and if they reach the latter stages) and then you dismiss the only international trophy win in their history. And yes I did mention the easier draw in the Pro 14 but then he had them finishing in general five places higher so it's pretty weak to try to hold that against him. You also seem to deny that players tend to be on the upward curve until their late 20s. the bottom line is, whichever way you try to spin it, he has a 30% better win percentage than his four predecessors, and their only wins over T1 nations since 2016 with a team far from it's peak age wise. For all your wriggling that is not the record of someone who deserves the sack.

2023-09-22T02:39:16+00:00

USrugger

Roar Rookie


Yep! I say...hmmm?...Macolm Marx!!!? Nah! Just throwing a name out there...????

2023-09-15T10:58:08+00:00

Brendan NH Fan

Roar Rookie


Losing to Georgia was more than just a match. It was the first time they had every lost to Georgia, it would be akin to foster losing the B Cup to Oz in a whitewash. Also you ignore that Benetton in the Pro14 had 5 games v the worst two teams in the league and it is why they and Cheetahs finished higher than they would normally. They now have 3 less easy games and they have been replaced with three games against Bulls, Sharks and Stormers so yes they would finish lower. Did you miss the part where their current coach took them to their first ever European semi final, a much harder task than making a Pro14 playoff. I am not saying Crowley is a bad coach, though Canada is hard to judge, I am saying that his contract not getting renewed is not unfair and the replacement is just as good. It depends what you class as kids. Kids are 18-20 and while he has some they are few and far between. He has players with more T1 club experince than probably Eddie.

AUTHOR

2023-09-14T21:00:18+00:00

JD Kiwi

Roar Rookie


I was being generous about the new coach, 7th and 8th is a lot better than 13th and 12th but it's hard to compare because of the new teams. Trying to hold that against Crowley is pretty desperate. As for his international record, come off it Brendan, he got their first two tier one wins for six years with a bunch of kids. And yes they lost a match - but that can easily happen when kids are playing against an older team. Now they've just got their biggest ever win at the World Cup. To fire a coach with those achievements, and by far the best winning percentage of the past five coaches, who has brought through all those kids, is crazy.

2023-09-14T13:54:35+00:00

Brendan NH Fan

Roar Rookie


So he has been as good as a first time head coach that took over after him. Not saying he didn’t see an improvement but what factors have you taken into account. The win v SA in 2016 was bigger than the Oz win he got and what I am saying is his win v Oz does not wipe out a first loss to Georgia and a bare win over Portugal. When the European club teams had their civil war all the top players left Italy as it was unclear if they would even be in the Pro12. Those players contracts were up around the same time he signed for Benetton so some of those players came back. COS was put in place to fix their under age which helped produce their best players ever which fed into the Crowley team especially Benetton as the top clubs are in and around Benetton rather than Parma. Foster has had big wins v Ireland, South Africa, Argentina and Oz but it doesn’t make the wins cover the losses and Crowley is the same. Do you think the new coach is a drop down from Crowley, I don’t.

AUTHOR

2023-09-14T05:16:50+00:00

JD Kiwi

Roar Rookie


Honestly, you're trying to argue a win over Australia as a negative? Obviously a young team will be inconsistent. That's pretty much universal. To have a far better win percentage and those wins over Wales and Australia with a team of kids is an impressive achievement. Now let's look at Treviso's record. Before Crowley 11/22, 11/12, 12/12. With Crowley an immediate and sustained improvement with only one exception - 10/12, 8/14, 7/14, 8/14, 12/12. Then after him 13/16, 11/16. Certainly no better than him even taking the stronger Saffer teams into account. Add all of this to his close knowledge of the players and success in bringing them through the different tiers and this is not a record worthy of the sack.

AUTHOR

2023-09-14T04:43:09+00:00

JD Kiwi

Roar Rookie


Maaaate...

AUTHOR

2023-09-14T04:36:42+00:00

JD Kiwi

Roar Rookie


Hi Brendan, apologies for delayed reply, too busy watching rugby. Your analysis of the maul defence seems to assume that it hasn't been tested for the last two seasons by Northern Hemisphere refs and teams. Even last week plenty of other things went wrong but there were no tries scored against us in the lineout. Securing the breakdown was definitely an issue on Friday, but it's never been with Cane or Papalii and Frizzel or Barrett on the flanks. Yes depth is a big issue (see my previous article) but if we can get our key players on the park we are strong in that area.

2023-09-10T22:33:03+00:00

Bluffboy

Roar Rookie


Yep :thumbup:

2023-09-08T12:01:59+00:00

Brendan NH Fan

Roar Rookie


Plenty teams give away few mauls scores when they give away penalties, but unlike SR teams don't as the ref gives penalty tries and teams get cards. the 2022 SR had a similar situation where Crusaders would have conceded two penalty tries and two cards v I think the Chiefs but the ref refused to do anything. In the NH or test rugby they would have and so Ryan's great maul defense is not as good using the same tactics. I find the ref talk (not by you but others) really head in the sand as if it was a once off, when it is SRP that is the bubble while all the other areas and even the SR refs at test level all ref the same way. To find this out two weeks before the WC is more than just a pointless friendly and means nothing. The fact the players nor the coaches after the first two infringements didn't think to change tact is the worry not the game as a whole. If you are saying that NZ weren't really trying and will be better next game we heard that after Ireland in 2021 before France and Game 2 before game 3 2022 yet both time they lost the next game because of their inability to control the breakdown even though they were fired up. We will see what happens but you can't teach players to secure the breakdown in two weeks and to shift the players minds from SR rules to test rules. Look at the Champions Cup final, that is exactly how the same ref will ref the game today.

AUTHOR

2023-09-08T11:56:48+00:00

JD Kiwi

Roar Rookie


I wasn't saying that those periods were better or worse than now, although they are at the very least comparable. I was answering Walt's point about about this team not having daylight between it and others, pointing out that these things have gone in cycles and it's happened before.

2023-09-08T11:50:18+00:00

Brendan NH Fan

Roar Rookie


If we ignore the 20/21 Pro 14 then you have to ignore the Rainbow Cup as it was the same season. I don't see people giving Foster the same pass they are willing to give Crowley. Without Garbisi (who left same season as Crowley) Benetton finished based on the European teams 21/22 = 9/12 6 wins, 22/23 = 7/12 8 wins. there was no 3 games against Zebre and two games v Kings that Crowley had to pump up his figures. 20/21 0 wins (3 games v Zebre), 19/20 6 wins (5 games v Kings or Zebre), 18/19 11 wins (5 games v Kings or Zebre), So those 5 games v Kings and Zebre are now replace with just two games v Zebre and no team like the Kings. Again he lost to Georgia which was massive for Italy who had never lost to them at any level Club or international. 2022 summer games where they just got past Portugal and lost to Georgia was probably why Crowley was not renewed. The inability to then beat Scotland or Wales this year and the barely getting over the line v Oz and massive beating to SA probably rubber stamped it.

2023-09-08T11:33:00+00:00

Brendan NH Fan

Roar Rookie


How many times did you play England and France in those WC cycles compared to this WC cycle If you had played France more would you have got more wins this cycle. This WC cycle Ireland 1/4, France 0/1 (and that was a loss after losing the week before), England 0/1, Argentina 5/7, South Africa 3/6, Scotland 1/1, Wales 2/2 (one outside test window) and good old Oz 9/11 = 21 wins out of 33 games against the best teams. Ireland 3/3, France 3/5, England 0/2, Argentina 2/2, South Africa 7/8, Scotland 3/3, Wales 2/2, Australia 4/8 = 24 wins out of 33 games. So 03 and 23 WC cycles involved 33 games against the top 8 nations and in 03 they won 3 more games (64% v 73%). In 03 NZ had 50% or Less win rate v Oz (50%) and England (0%), in 23 it is Ireland (25%), France (0%), England (0%) and SA (50%). 95 cycle it was Ireland 2/2, France 0/2, England 0/1, South Africa 3/4, Lions 2/3, Scotland 1/1, Samoa (top 8 as made 91 & 95 quarters instead of Wales as didn't play NZ) 1/1, Australia 2/5, = Wins 11/18 61%, 50% or less is France (0%), England (0%), Oz (40%). in the 95 cycle NZ didn't play Argentina. So yes the 1995 cycle might be worse but that was down to playing so few games outside of the top teams unlike other WC cycles. If we look at the win rate v the teams with 50% or less win rate it reads 1995 2/8 (25%), 2003 4/10 (40%), 2023 4/12 (33%). 2003 and 1995 seem to be seen as worse due to Oz being better than NZ. In 1999 NZ had a 6/10 win rate v Oz so maybe NZ teams are judged on Oz results over everything else.

AUTHOR

2023-09-08T07:50:01+00:00

JD Kiwi

Roar Rookie


Huh? Under Mains 93-95 we lost three times in a row to France (twice at home) and lost to England. In 99-03 we lost twice each to France and England. We've only lost once each to them in the last ten years!

AUTHOR

2023-09-08T07:41:56+00:00

JD Kiwi

Roar Rookie


Come on, bagging him for one year, in COVID with a very young team, and ignoring all the good results, is very unbalanced. Especially after he took a team that had been finishing 11, 11, 12 in the Pro 12 and got them consistently mid table every other year - which the new guy hasn't improved on despite the kids getting older.

2023-09-08T07:41:41+00:00

WEST

Roar Guru


https://www.planetrugby.com/news/ranked-the-heaviest-tallest-and-oldest-packs-in-the-rugby-championship I took a note of the pack sizes during the 6Nations about pack weights etc from this year.. thought they weren’t the monsters everyone claims them to be. Then planet rugby published an article about this years RC packs.. Well, well, well. Like unmasking the villain in ScoobyDoo.. Just as I suspected! It was the cemetery caretaker all along!

AUTHOR

2023-09-08T07:27:20+00:00

JD Kiwi

Roar Rookie


I didn't know that! Of course big and effective aren't always the same thing!

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