IRB Report 2010: CAR – Africa: Part IV

I assume by poor crowds in SA you are referring to the empty cavern that is Ellis park where even 5'000 looks like 500. Admittedly the Cheetahs have also struggled a bit recently. The Stormers, long the best supported team, Sharks and Bulls are very well supported. I dont have fiugures for 2011 but 2010 Bulls avg 34K Cheetahs avg 14K Lions avg 11k Sharks avg 25k pretty poor for the Sharks which I assume was due to them losing almost every game in the first part of the season. Stormers avg 42k The overall average of the season for all the SA teams was just shy of 26K with 856930 bums on seats. I would say thats pretty damn healthy

The Bush You are correct. Junior participation doesn't always translate and in a continent such as Africa that is particularly true due to economic standards and social instability. However, it is a good sign to see junior teams regularly take it to and defeat there closet opposition. For Kenya its about creating a critical mass, the country has had in place a social development program targetting 2020, where they can move in a situation of economic stability and relative prosperity. This actually leads to the potential for Rugby in Kenya to move toward more proefessional structures both in 7s and 15s.

There is a lot being done to push rugby into these areas but its not like its not been there already. The problem however is the existing unions with their huge talent base are unable to capitalise on it. To put it into perspective, not a single union in this region is in the premier tier of the Currie cup or even doing well in the Vodacom cup. Tie that together with very poor management and gross financial negligence and you get the picture. The idea of getting the Kings up and running is admirable but is a top down approach and although Im sure will provide missing opportunity, it will not fill that missing gap needed to nurture and develop players for the top tier. Now the Lions and Cheetahs may be bad at a Super rugby level but even their Vodacom cup sides are heading the full strength EP union sides. So tough call and ultimately one which will only be solved by inclusion of all these teams.

The point you highlight here cannot be emphasised enough Kovana. Any talk of expanding SR is completely pointless without first resolving the issues of SR and its relationship with domestic rugby. Continuing to push the model of generic, regional franchises will only further heighten the apathy toward SR, while at the same time further marginalising the competitions and provinces that have served SA and NZ rugby so well. I often am dismayed by the poor crowds for many of the SR games in SA and NZ, considering the quality of the rugby, the richness of rugby culture and lack of football competition in these markets. I then consider the scenario of the Reds combining with northern NSW to form the ‘Eastern Giants’ or simply the ‘Giants’, a situation not unlike those experienced by SA and NZ rugby fans, then ask myself..Would I go and support the ‘Giants’? – No chance in hell!

WCR, Junior teams don't always reflect eventual strength. There are numerous countries with huge junior participation that cannot transform that into senior level success. For me, it's all about professionalism, the wider pool of professional players available, at the highest possible level, the more likely that team is going to be a success. It's no secret that Argentina (has), and now Georgia (will), and eventually Russia (maybe) emerged as new Rugby nations as a result of the increased professional player pool. Argentina is where it is today because they can produce a squad of full professionals playing Top Flight in England, France and the Celtic-Italian Competitions. This is a reason why Japan's progress is stunted somewhat. The actual Japanese players, as opposed to the naturalised foreigners (which I have no problem with), aren't professionals playing an eight (8) month comp like in Aus or Europe. They are semi-professional players playing in a three (3) month comp whose standard is greatly increased by the presence of a number of quality professional imports. Until the Top League moves to a home-and-away fully professional competition (or their players move overseas), the team will not take that next step to Top 10. Back on point, as I said, Tunisia and Morocco have access to a wider pool of professional players (whether they be 2nd generation or not) in France, which means in the short-term they can catch Namibia faster than Kenya...

Not at senior level. At U20s we have the Junior World Cup and Junior World Trophy (Tier 2). Not too sure its needed for the most part. In Europe we have the extensive European Nations Cup structure (7 or 8 divisions), Asia has the Asian5Nation (6 divisions) CAR Trophy/Africa Cup (5 divisions) and Consur A and B. The only one that needs work is NACRA which could be best suited to being turned into a home and away domestic-esque league. Would be interesting though. Sort of a Champions Trophy of Tier 2 nations. Oh, there's also the Nations Cup. That actually could be transformed into a tangible secondary championship. It already exists. You could enter the next best two from Europe (Spain and Portugal), Africa (Tunisia and one of Ivory Coast or Kenya), Asia (Hong Kong and UAE), the Americas (Uruguay and Chile) and Oceania. Run it on a four year cycle in between RWC's. This owuld allow qualification to occur through each respecitve regional structure while hopefully elevating the standards opening the door for more teams to contest for RWC spaces.

Im with you WCR, there is no point expanding until the current teams that qualify every cycle put in a better showing. Georgia's performance at the last tournament was fantastic, and Fiji going through ahead of Wales was also excellent. The US's performance against England was also pretty good. However simultaneously Italy failed to go through (best opportunity with a match against Scotland), ensuring that their progress remains a little stunted; Japan performed well against Fiji (barely losing) and drew with Canada, yet was still whipped by the real powers (hopefully they turn that around this year) and Portugal didn't really add much to the tournament beyond a feel good factor. Having said all that, if they were to expand to twenty-four (24) teams divided into six (6) groups of four (4), then there would be less games for the minnows to play, and thus an upset and qualification to the next round would be easier. Also presumably twelve (12) teams would go through (top two (2) from each group), which would be beneficial for the 2019 tournament as it will increase Japans chances of going to the next stage (vital to maintain interest).

Yep.. Its called the 6 nations.. :lol: Just a joke.

yep, thats what im hoping for too.. At the moment the NPC for NZ loses money since its still run as a Pro comp.. But honestly...Incorporating it so that.. Perhaps the the top 2 to 6 teams in the First Division of the ITM cup will take part in HC-style SR tournament would be huge.. Imagine a Team like Hawkes bay.. Who may have been in the 2nd division of the NPC getting promoted to the First division.. and from there winning the NPC and Qualification to the international SR tournament to try and get crowned as Club champions of the SH. Meh.. just an idea to kill 2 birds with one stone.. Increase the prestige of the local Domestic Comp and teams AND saving money.. No need for Franchises.

The Bush Tunisia are the trend setters no doubt, however, at the junior level Kenya are the mover's and shakers. With the development programs in place their numbers should steadily climb and so should there competitiveness. Already three of the best U20's have been recruited to American Universities to play the game. The game is increasing in strength year by year and the only thing that may hold them back is size.

Is there a 2nd tier world cup for the teams that don't make the world cup?

Kovana Yeah, the EP Kings are the Currie Cup eqivalent of the soon to be Southern Kings. I actually believe SR is heading toward a natural balance where essentially both the Currie Cup,ITM Cup and the Australian Conference Championship will eventually be intergrated in one form or another. The day may not be that far off where Super Rugby resembles the Hienieken Cup in the sense that teams play strictly within their coferences on a home and away basis before the top 2 from each conference move onto a 6 team finals series.

NF, I too would love for Madagascar to rise through the ranks. They have performed very well in the Africa Cup, being at least finalists on one occassion, and are generally a strong side for the region. Furthermore, the local club competition is very well supported and is well represented in the media. Matches involving the National Team are usually also accompaniede by big crowds. The country has numerous problems however, including being poor even by African standards. As to whether Kenya or Zimbabwe overtake Namibia as the second (2nd) best team in Africa, at the moment Tunisia appears to be a trend setter in Xv's. Kenya appears totally focused on 7s, whilst Zimbabwe's national problems remain in a significant enough way to stunt the nations growth on the global sporting stage (lack of tours, finances etc). For mine, Tunisia and Morocco have access to a huge talent pool in the South of France (a Rugby hotbed as we all know), and I expect that increasing professionalism at all levels in France will help these two (2) countries progress quickly...

Are the EP kings in the Currie Cup the same as the Southern Kings WCR? EP kings get pretty good crowds for the CC. Anyways.. If they get a 6th team for the SA conference.... It will start to really congest the Rugby calender.. Saffas already have the Currie cup.. and word from some Saffas is that they get tired of Seeing WP (aka Stormers in SR) playing the Blue Bulls (BULLS in SR) twice in home and away settings in the CC,, Then seeing these same teams play again TWICE in the SR competition.... Could lead to the killing of the golden goose. There has to be a revamp in the Future of the SR.. TOGETHER with the domestic comps of each conference.

KPM There's a suggestion or be it a belief among many South African I know that as part of the deal to have Melbourne admitted in the Australian conference that both the ARU and NZRU rubberstamped the Southern Kings entrance in 2013. This argument could be bolstered with the competitions name change. It isn't as many like to call it the Super 15, its actual accurate name is Super Rugby. By removing the numerical value from the name it allows them to incrementally add teams. Watch this space. I'm betting on the Tahs playing the Kings at Nelson Mandela Stadium in Port Elizabeth in 2013. Moving to 28 teams in the RWC would be a step to far all at once in my opinion. While it would add a further internationalist flavour to the event it may be a little premature. However, my line of thinking is subject to change if the quality which is improving is getting there. I think by 2015-19 we'll see the likes of Georgia, USA, Japan (finally) and Russia begin to join the Tier One nations and could at the very least prompt 4 more teams to be inculded.

Working and KOG there's no problem here as they can keep both the Lions and Cheetahs and add the Southern Kings quite easily with the new conference system, which I believe will soon be the case. I don't think it matters that the weaker teams in a World Cup are uncompetitive as there are huge mismatches in the football World Cup as well. The advantages far outweigh the negative aspects: and who cares if the critics say there are many uncompetitive teams. Being in a World Cup significantly boosts enthusiasm and funding for a sport so one day it isn't predictable who will be in the quarter finals (which is actually not that unpredictable in the football World Cup either).

Kovana I agree, in fact why not 28? The teams who are just on the edge aren't actually much weaker than the weaker ones currently involved. I think it would give the game a huge boost and something for countries just on the outside to work towards, while making it a real global competition.

KoGS The current provinces in Super Rugby are where the power lies so the chances of any relegation is very unlikely.

oh yes the Kings. If they really want the Kings in so bad, why not get rid of one of the underperforming Afrikaan sides (i.e Cheetahs or Lions). Encouraging more young black men into the fraternity of rugby can only be a good thing for the development of the somewhat troubled country.

KoGS I've heard they have been pushing into the black population quite hard working to get more and more into the game and it seem to be progressing. That's part of the SARU insistence on the Southern Kings in Port Elizabeth. The Eastern Province has proven fruitful in terms of attracting young black men into the game. Having a team representative of the demographic (which is predominently black) will go a long way to not only furthering its footprint in the Eastern Province but the black community in South Africa as a whole.