Rugby league versus rugby union. A century after their split in Australia, debate still rages about the merits of each code. What have we learned about who would win in a head-to-head clash, and what could it look like?
Many have looked for answers.
In 1996, Wigan and Bath clashed twice. Not surprisingly, Wigan won under league rules. Bath won under union rules. Wigan led 101-50 on aggregate but few debates were settled.
In 2003, Sale defeated St Helens 41-39. Sale raced to 41-0 under union rules in the first half. Rolling mauls advanced up to 30 metres, and St Helens struggled to gain possession.
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The tables turned in a faster league-rules second half and St Helens dominated 39-0. Despite posting the third highest crowd that summer (12,257) it wasn’t repeated. When we consider than St Helens were returning from a two-month break, and missed five conversions, few conclusions can be drawn.
To compete head-to-head, new hybrid rules would be required. But who would develop them? And why? The answers were closer than many expected.
Competition has only intensified since with ARU raids on NRL talent, NRL scouts thriving in the gaps between club and Super Rugby and league’s growing inroads in New Zealand and across the Pacific. Debate rages whether players such as Andrew Fifita (photographed watching the Waratahs while negotiating with the Sharks and Bulldogs) are genuine conversion targets, or simply promoting their market value.
Despite its global strengths, the ARU’s challenges in Australia are well known. No comparable market sustains four football codes. The rise of the NRL, AFL and A-League have taken their toll. In crowds, ratings and juniors. The ARU’s non-tour years continue to lose money ($6.3 million in 2014). A more sustainable club championship and mooted $45 million broadcast deal will strengthen its hand, but promoters have identified a new opportunity for profitable exhibition matches.
But how? The NRL’s high-tempo rule changes continue to separate the codes. Union maintains specialist positions and body types, while league players are seemingly evolving near-consistent large, mobile frames.
A series of false starts followed. In 2008, with the Manly Marlins. In 2011, with Kangaroos versus Wallabies. In 2014 a reported Wallabies versus Great Britain clash. No head-to-head clash resulted.
Players remained supportive. Israel Folau notes, “I’m certainly up for it. I think it would be a lot of fun and you’d attract a lot of fans to watching the game”. Manly legend Noel Cleal agrees.
“That would be great, to see a Kangaroos-Wallabies match in front of a packed ANZ Stadium … I’m a rugby league man through and through, but this concept is inevitable. It’s going to happen.”
Work on balanced hybrid rules continued. Wallaby legend Mark Ella developed the 2011 trial between St Augustine’s College (Sydney) and Keebra Park HS (Gold Coast) at Brookvale Oval. Perhaps more than any other game, this has laid out a template for what will follow.
League rules applied in possession to the halfway line. Union rules then applied. Thirteen-player sides, five-point tries, two-points goals and conversions and one-point field goals. Ten reserves, four x 20-minute quarters, a 60-second ‘shot clock’ for penalised sides caught in possession (versus average NRL set times around 50 seconds).
The clock would reset as players cross the halfway line, at penalties and breakdowns. Five-player lineouts remained, but without lifting. After the match, Mark noted “there were only five or six scrums, three lineouts and possession changed non-stop. The breakdown is not a mess and the scrums are competitive.”
While promoters struggled afterwards, amateur efforts continued, including a hybrid trial in 2014 between Newport Breakers rugby and Avalon Bulldogs.
“The argument goes back over 100 years as to which game is the most physical,” noted Newport president David Hunt. “The leaguies said the union boys aren’t going to be able to tackle and I said you guys aren’t going to see the ball.”
Once again, it was inconclusive (after wild weather forced its cancellation). Hope continues. Do we now have a pathway to an elite clash?
A Starlight Foundation hybrid fundraiser has been announced between Randwick’s Greens and the NSW Cup Western Suburbs Magpies (NSW Cup) at Pirtek Stadium following the League grand final. TV coverage is mooted (but unconfirmed).
“This is just the start,” claimed Foundation president Phil Franks. “It’s been a long process to get two different codes to agree to it and I’m sure this game will be the catalyst for even bigger events down the track. The dream is for the Kangaroos v Wallabies.”
Will it happen? Time will tell. But the day when we see whether leaguies can secure enough possession to prevail is closer than ever before.
JH
Guest
Your quite right Nick, those union greats are a level above those league players. It's an insult to put them together in the same sentence.
jetz
Guest
50 points on all blacks? Are you dreaming!. Three losses in a row including a hiding in the last test against the kiwis and you think youre kangapoos can beat the mighty all blacks. League players in NZ are the rejects of union.maybe in Oz its the other way round.but Every kiwi kids dream is to become an all black. Wont be long til NZ will be totally dominating league as it is in Union.
Nick evans
Guest
The rugby league greats you have named are on another level compared to the union please never ever put these names in the same sentence again cheers haha
Birdy
Guest
Minge if you read my post above even the RU itself has rules for scrums to protect not just inexperienced opposition but experienced as well. For a hybrid game to have rules that benefit both codes the scrum would have to be non competitive which would considerably disadvantage the RU . Even if the powers to be foolishly allowed a competitive scrum I don't think the RU players would use it anyway. Eg Ben Darwin said after his career ending neck injury, if it wasn't for the experience of the AB forwards the scrum would have continued and he would have been in a wheel chair or worse. The scrum is a major factor in RU but something not understood in league something we are still trying to get rid of. After thought, what do you think would happen if you packed a scrum against an NFL side ... Broken necks for the NFL .
Minge
Guest
These games will never happen as the Union blokes wont be allowed to push in scrums for risk of injury esp when nothing hangs on it.
Mad Mick
Guest
So where does that leave the Kiwi rugby league team that just smashed the kangaroos. Most of those players would not go close to the ABs.
Riley Pettigrew
Roar Guru
It would be more of a benefit to the ARU if a game was played between the Kangaroos and Wallabies or Waratahs and South Sydney, etc. as it would increase exposure of rugby union in Australia and also prove to be a huge financial boost for Pulver's organisation. I feel that David Smith and the NRL CEOs would not be willing to play a hybrid exhibition due to the already tight scheduling, it would be very hard to fit such a game into the schedule. Where would you put it? The 2016 pre-season will be dominated by NRL Auckland Nines and All Stars where as, the 2016 Four Nations will take up most of the post-season.
Birdy
Guest
Hi Crosscoder, I've been in the roar for a year now it's just a fun site. I've read a lot of RU and afl people knock our game on our site and probably vice versa . I've heard first hand of the deception of RU against their players playing RL or even showing an interest on our game. And I've seen first hand the money or gifts given to high level RU players not just to stay in RU but to get them to another club and that was in tne 70,s . Case in point. I played a season in the Waikato (RL ) and was asked to come and watch a local RU side play . After the game I was asked if I liked the game and would I like to come and train with them. Starting at 2 nd grade naturally. They told me they were building a new team and had already attracted several new players of high standard from around NZ one being a very young inside back who was a AB trialist. I've found that every kiwi I've met since then was an AB trialist but apparently he was the real deal. I asked how did you attract such a quality player. The answer ' we got him a house' my reply oh that's great you arranged accommodation for him?' The reply ' oh no , we bought him a house'. I think if any one really investigated RU in Australia similar stories would surface. And if they could launder their assets to assist players then isn't it fair to ask . What did all the directors get? But I won't ask that question. . You see RU is played in heaven so all their managers CEO 's etc are going to heaven also.
Birdy
Guest
Bomb78, nice to see you came down a peg or 2 from your first reply that the union forwards would break the league forwards to pieces. Your right the scrum is extremely dangerous against untrained opersition. Even in union the scrums become uncontested if a team cannot supply experienced props and even with 2 experienced forward packs the ref gives instructions something like , bind , touch contact. More added safety , and so it should be. It sends shivers down my spine when I see a push in a league scrum ie the warriors v parramatta last year, Newcastle v tigers this year. Unfortunately in both cases it bought back the debate of re introducing the competitive scrum in league, which would bring back all the penalties and time wasting which is just not RL. Yes I admit that RL has forgotten how dangerous a scrum is and I'll be the first to admit how skillfull it HAS to be but then again so does a tug of war, from a RL perspective it's frustrating , and rolling malls. That, no I don't even want to go there. Just another' interesting point A good example of a forward succeeding at both games at the highest level is Brad Thorne . Already a big man he had to put on roughly 6 kg yo play RU , when he came back briefly to RL he had to strip it off again. Simply put 2 very different games.
Crosscoder
Roar Guru
Doesn't change the fact,that money was swirling around during the so called amateur years of ru.Thus rl players at times were lost to ru. At least rl was Openly professional from day 1 ,with nothing to hide,whereas in the other code it was done at times covertly.So of course ru players defected, out in the open For example the money was that good in French ru in the " amateur" years,rugby league players jumped at the opportunity to earn more.And a couple of instances in Australia,to which Masters and a couple of other journalists have alluded,where Wallaby Internationals were "assisted financially" so as not to defect to rugby league(St George the club involved). Cue :' where is the documentary evidence"
Birdy
Guest
Bit harsh there rob9 , if you read down a bit further you will see my reply should have been under Lostintokyo's funny comment on dreaming that the two codes never separated . With your question on a link to Keebra park I googled it and found yes it was a 7's tournament and Yes they did play a hybrid 13, s game against St Augustines which they lost by 4 on the bell. Not a bad effort at schoolboy level considering you would have to figure out scrum and rucking.
Sione
Guest
it didnt stop many from switching to league. if the money was that good then many rugby players will stay in rugby
Sione
Guest
i have no problem with nz teams in anothers country's national competitions. if the nz kiwis winning the RLWC in 2008 doesn't do much then a second kiwi team will be the same. enjoy the olympics coming soon to a town near you
Rob9
Roar Guru
What on earth are you talking about?? All that's needed in your response is the first word you typed; because either your memory isn't serving you correctly or you're making things up.
Birdy
Guest
No lostin Tokyo , imagine the sooking coming from across the Tasman then. Their small country syndrome is bad enough now.
Greg trilby
Guest
Go warriors, I am from NZ and have travelled to all those countries bar Sri Lanka and madagasker and you are dreaming if you think League is bigger in nz than Rugby in those countries, especially outside Auckland.
Russell Johnson
Guest
I think that getting dreamy eyed about reunification is a symptom of terminal wishiwashiness when it comes to themes like this one. But on a pedantic and semantic point LEAGUE, NINES, TOUCH and yawn are different SPORTS and different codes of football and only people who suffer from the above disease should be allowed to refer to them in any other way. This is only so we could recognise them more easily and so prevent us from mocking the afflicted! TGG!
Tiger
Guest
Right, saw it differently thanks for clearing that up.The wallabies aren't playing well and haven't been for a while, but then again neither are the Kangaroos. I think both games are perfect as they are and this question of who's the best, toughest, etc will carry on well after you and I are gone. Re Sam Burgess, I personally think he should have signed with one of the S15 teams. SH rugby suits his style of play, but do understand why he needed to go home. I hope he gets to the WC.
Crosscoder
Roar Guru
20 years of Open professionalism to be precise.Shamateurism was hardly a description that arrived from Mars.
Bomb78
Guest
Those 50 points would have to come before the first scrum - hard to score when four or five of your forwards were carried off broken after a rugby tight five rolled under, over and through them.