Struggling clubs of the competition cannot blame their poor performances on their inexperienced lists because it’s simply not good enough at AFL level.
To see the Gold Coast and St Kilda go down by a total of 179 points over a weekend of footy, even against two stronger teams of the competition, is well below what a dominant game should look like.
The youth and development seen in these sides cannot be blamed for when games are lost by unexpected margins.
Developing players does take time, however, clubs cannot blame this for poor performances as it’s simply not good enough at the top level.
The North Melbourne Football Club is a prime example of how quickly a club list can develop and change over a short period of time. Over a pre-season, the club had only four changes to their list.
Jack Ziebell of the Kangaroos (Photo by Quinn Rooney/Getty Images)
The club was in turmoil after 2017 as it was vastly predicted to finish in the bottom four again this season. Although, things quickly changed for them.
With some great coaching and a couple of senior players stepping up, they have since put seven wins on the board this season, already surpassing the six wins they had in 2017.
Still a very similar list to the one of the previous season, they became winners. The North Melbourne Football Club is a prime example for the efficient and effective development of their players.
The likes of Ben Brown, Jarrod Waite, Shaun Higgins, Jack Ziebell and Ben Cunnington have stepped up for the club, taking their young talent along with them.
A few little changes such as a move down back for Majak Daw and using Ben Jacobs as a tagger has provided great stability for the team.
It is these small changes influenced by every coach which has changed the dynamic of the football club.
For too long now, the struggling clubs of the competition in Brisbane, Gold Coast, St Kilda and Carlton have been in the developing stages. It’s too long for the modern footy supporter to sit through and for these clubs, it shouldn’t take this long.
It has been seven years since St Kilda have made the top eight. Brisbane haven’t made the top eight in nine years and have appeared in the bottom four five times.
Gold Coast fans are yet to see their team make the finals in their first seven seasons in the competition and Carlton has only seen their team once in the top eight in the past six seasons.
Player development must improve at these clubs especially list management which comes with it. North Melbourne’s success so far this season has been largely due to the great balance of young and old players at the club.
They’ve got a culture of young and old with leaders among which have been recognised and been able to drive the club. It should be a fundamental for all clubs to ensure they have the right balance of young and old.
The move of Luke Hodge to Brisbane has been a great step forward for them although they require more experience around the club for the development of their less experienced players.
Luke Hodge of the Lions (Photo by Bradley Kanaris/Getty Images)
They also must ensure that they don’t lose their future prospects as it’s a mistake that other clubs have made which has led to lost talent.
This has largely been the problem at Gold Coast and Carlton. The list management of recent years has been poor at these clubs as this balance of young and old has been non-existent.
The Gold Coast have lost the likes of Jaegar O’Meara, Gary Ablett, Charlie Dixon, Adam Saad and Dion Prestia to name a few players. This poor example of list management has led the club to their current struggles. Imagine what it could’ve been if they had these players at the club now.
Likewise, with the Carlton Football club who have lost Sam Jacobs, Jarrod Waite, Eddie Betts, Shaun Grigg, Zach Tuohy, Bryce Gibbs and Jeff Garlett.
This has led these clubs to massive downfalls and long-delayed rebuilds as a result of poor list management.
If clubs had at least half of the listed players, there’d been a difference. It only takes a few players to change a club around and clubs must make sure that there not losing key prospects for the future.
It’s now time for the struggling clubs of the AFL to step up and compete against the competition’s best.
List management and player development have to improve significantly as there’s plenty of evidence from the rise of North Melbourne that clubs can evolve over a preseason.
Max Hatzoglou
Roar Pro
Hey Macca, Well put. You can add Dow and O'Brien to that list of good young players. The only thing I say here is that they must have good support from their experienced AFL players in Docherty when back from injury, Simpson, Thomas, Kreuzer, Cripps and Murphy. If Murphy leaves at the end of the year, it will be horrible on Carlton's behalf as he is the captain of the club and a key part of their young talented players' development. As alluded to in my article, they must have older, experienced players at the club for the development of a lot of their inexperienced, young players. Therefore, it is key that they hold onto Murphy.
Macca
Guest
PaulD - First up I would say Weitering has been pretty solid since returning rom the VFL, Silvagni's last game has earned him one this week and I should have included Fisher who I think you may be right about. But looking at your responses in the context of Kris' formula I would say Weitering, McKay, Curnow, SPS, Williamson & Fisher are all "good young players" (I would include Dow and O'Brien as well but we can leave them out) which give the blues 6 "good young players" from 2 drafts - that is what makes the blues supporters happy with the direction not Kris' fallacy. Yes the future is uncertain but the strategy and execution to this point looks solid.
Paul D
Roar Guru
Weitering - struggling badly, crisis of confidence. Long term prospect McKay - seems to have started very well, but as we've seen (Joe Daniher, Weitering etc) young players can quickly fall to earth after meteoric beginnings C Curnow - best thing at Carlton since Fev Cunningham - jobber J Silvagni - like J Aish, his name is the only thing getting him a game SPS - long term prospect with a lot of skill, needs a lot more fitness Williamson - started well, has a back injury currently, too early to say how badly that will hamper him haven't really seen enough of the others yet Personally I think Fisher is the best pure footballer out of all of them
Macca
Guest
Carlton fans are being sold your "truth" formula, not your fallacy. In the past 3 years the blues have orchestrated 7 first round draft picks - that indicates they are focusing on "good young players" rather than just "young players". FWIW how would you categorise the following draftees; Weitering McKay C Curnow Cuningham J Silvagni SPS Williamson Kerr Dow O'Brien TDK
Kris
Guest
The fallacy is that: Young Player + Time (and Development) = Good Player. This is the fallacy that Carlton fans (in particular) are being sold. The truth is Good Young Player + Time (and Development) = Good Player (if you are lucky).
Max Hatzoglou
Roar Pro
Thanks for your opinion Luke. From understanding everything you’ve said about players wanting to come back home which is totally fair and true, part of list managing is getting the right players. In these cases where players are drafted from interstate, recruiters must understand the risk of them leaving to go back home for each individual player as it varies from player to player. It varies as some players will have to move anyway because they live in the country although some don’t as they live near the cities. Interviews are done with all most all draftees prior to draft night once or several times and it’s part of the list managers job to get an indication of whether the player will be committed to stay if going interstate. So when you say Brisbane and Gold Coast have rentention issues, it’s true although that issue comes under the fault of the list mangers. Not all the fault but partly. If you read my article again, you should understand that there is a solution to this as you now know what’s part of the list managers job.
Dalgety Carrington
Roar Guru
What tends to happen at those struggling clubs with younger lists is that clubs with an "open premiership window" will start circling their more promising youngsters from a long way out. The frontier northern clubs are especially vulnerable to this, as it gets compounded by the sheer numbers of flight risks on their lists. The clubs can end up between the choice of losing their most promising talent or paying way overs for players who haven't really delivered yet.
luke O'Connor
Guest
Hi Max, I am in total agreeance with Paul D, I learned nothing from this article. Gold Coast and Brisbane have had retention issues that are both similar and very different. Same with Carlton and the Saints. It is a given that list management and player retention is key to any club but in the case of the QLD clubs, there is a constant. The media and punters in general actively encourage every Victorian draftee to "Go Home" from the QLD clubs almost the moment that they are drafted. You will see line after line is written about Rory Sloane, Tom Lynch or Luke Shooey must come "home". Never mind these are usually 25 year old adults that have been well paid and spoon fed for years. I am not sure about you but I moved away from "home" and went to QLD to live when I was 20. Unfortunately, I wasn't drafted, billeted, fed, managed or even paid to make the move but it quickly became my new "home" and wouldn't dare think of moving. This crazy idea is put in every young Victorians mind that they will never be successful unless they come "home" to play a great game at the MCG in front of 200,000 screaming fans and win a premiership! Never mind that are 18 clubs and picking a winning a premiership team is nearly impossible at the best of times, but these young Victorians have to go "home" and get some success! Perhaps focus the articles in future on solutions, and no, moving the Suns to mighty Tasmania isn't a solution! While it is so acceptable for players to leave clubs such as the QLD teams and there is totally inadequate balance in player movement and compensation it is always going to be difficult for "non-Victorian" clubs to hold players. Ablett, O'Mera, Witts, Bennell, Swallow, Lyons, Miller, Caddy and Prestia looks like a hell of a good midfield to me!
Pope Paul VII
Guest
Not his best game for sure. He's been an effective cog though this year. Wasn't alone in having a bad game either as many more experienced players stuffed up. For all Higgins' talent he made some poor decisions. North were totally outplayed in general and stumbled between being slightly overawed by the trinity and displaying unfounded overconfidence. Certainly if they get another crack they should tag Princess Gary (as Carey suggested).
Max Hatzoglou
Roar Pro
Hi James, I am writing about how inexperienced teams have gotten to where they are by losing players who are now matured aged and experienced players at other AFL clubs. This has caused an unbalanced list of matured aged, experienced players to young, inexperienced players for the Gold Coast and Carlton Football Clubs in particular. Once that was stated, I talked about how clubs "need to retain some experienced players in order to develop your young talent" as a way of fixing the clubs struggles so they don't appear again in the future.
Dalgety Carrington
Roar Guru
As I said above, I see North as very much in the same position as WC, in terms of structure (certainly fwds, mids, rucks and definitely shading them in the backline comparison and arguably the tall forward dept too), stability in playing list and age profile of the playing team. Certainly, if WC can win it this year, the North can too, they'll just need a little more to go right for the rest of the year as it has done for the WC so far in the first half of this season. If they don't win it this year, then you'd wonder about the path forward. The model of treading water in the mid-upper reaches of the ladder has been North's one for a very long time now. The main worry is that it will bring competitiveness, but not much else. I guess like any list management model it can rely on a bit of luck, along with some canny decision making to fully fulfil the quest.
Cat
Roar Guru
Daw doing well? I was going to give him votes as one of Geelongs best on the weekend. The rest I agree with but Daw has been and continues to be a waste of a list spot. Still can’t read the play after what 8 years on the list?
Pope Paul VII
Guest
Spot on the foundations are solid. I think North's thing is to, wherever possible, retain players rather than swap them out. They also manage pick up handy discards. Williams and Hartung for example. Majak Daw is a good example of retention. They knew he'd come in handy one day and he's the oldest teenager going around only having played about 40 games. By the time Thomson and Tarrant leave he'll probably be the big man in town. Get's so much crap from alleged supporters online it's embarrassing so it's good to seem him doing well. Anderson and Ahern are others, one much maligned (once or twice by me, sorry Jed) and the other just another GWS high draft pick, injured and free to a good home. Hanging in with Jacobs and Wright, a most underrated player, has also been important. Dumont is a player who just goes and goes while barely being noticed. Atley is going great guns yet there is talk of a trade. I hope not. Pruess will come in for Goldstein. They need to keep in the good books with him. Maybe it's a just a handy North Melbourne myth but they do encourage the shinboner unity and loyalty thing (give or take the odd enforced retirement and club wrecking affair). I think Brad Scott is a pretty good manager of men, which probably helps.
Paul D
Roar Guru
I should expand on my snarky comment from earlier Max - the main reason I was cheesed off at this piece was because you made claims like "although they require more experience around the club for the development of their less experienced players" "They also must ensure that they don’t lose their future prospects...This has largely been the problem at Gold Coast and Carlton. The list management of recent years has been poor at these clubs " And not once did you mention the words "free agency" or any of the issues around why perhaps clubs like the Suns and Lions struggled to retain or attract players. Anyways. North are a very good club with a coach who year by year is adding to his credentials. Remember 2013 or whenever it was, when they lost all those close games in succession - West Coast to Nic Nat's mark after the siren, Adelaide's 30 points in 5 mins - for them to shrug that off, move past all those club stalwarts leaving and still be back there or thereabouts in 2018 is a very good achievement.
Max Hatzoglou
Roar Pro
When speaking about the loss of players currently listed at other clubs, it is not blaming the current list managing although the past. In Carlton's situation, the blame is put on the list managers from 4-5 years ago. The blame is not going onto Bolton or Silvagni at all.
Macca
Guest
To me if you look very simplistically North have a decent ruckman with strong bodied clearance players at his feet and two really god contested marks up forward - that gives them a great platform to build off. But longer term if you take Waite and Thompson out the team looks shaky and then if you lose Goldstein, Higgins and Tarrant not long after they are in trouble.
Dalgety Carrington
Roar Guru
The sample size for North is fairly small to hold them up as a beacon for list management. They are definitely fielding one of the older aged teams this year and actually benefitted from a relatively stable off-season trading period. The real question on them is their depth and how it will sustain over multiple seasons. The thing that North, and WC for that matter (I see them as two sides of the same coin this year), also show me is the value of having multipronged talented and in-form talls in attack.
JamesH
Roar Guru
The title is confusing. It suggests an article about how inexperienced sides should still be competitive, but the article is really about how you need to retain some experienced players in order to develop your young talent. Hard to see how Bolton and Silvagni are responsible for losing Jacobs, Betts, Waite, Garlett or Grigg. Grigg and Jacobs left almost 8 years ago!
JamesH
Roar Guru
Holding down Dixon, Prestia, O'Meara, Saad and Ablett was pretty much the only way the Suns were ever going to keep them. The club will need to keep Lynch under house arrest if they want to retain him.
Macca
Guest
I you look at the North side that played on the weekend their full back is 29, the CHB is 32, their centreman (Jacobs as named ) is 26, their CHF (Wood) is 24 and their FF is 25. On ball their ruckman is 29, their ruck rover is about to turn 27(Cunnington) and their rover (Higgins) is 30. Throw in the likes of Ziebell (27) Daw (27) Wright (27) MacMillan (26) Atley (25) and the currently injured Waite (35) and the question has to be asked why they are being discussed in an article about inexperienced lists. Also of the 18 players they have under 22 only 3 have played more than 10 games and only 2 more than 12.