The GMHBA final integrity contradiction

By You'll Never Hawk Alone / Roar Pro

Once again, the notion of Geelong hosting a final at home this September is on the agenda.

In all likeliness, there is no possibility or such an occurrence, but let’s for a moment consider the strange counter arguments to the concept.

Caroline Wilson has long been opposed to the idea, and her arguments are worth considering because they encapsulate both the general view of those opposed to the idea, and the extraordinary arguments for why the idea is apparently “ridiculous”.

I think it is worth noting, in all probability the AFL has already decided Geelong will not be hosting a final for the foreseeable future, but it is nonetheless worth considering the counter arguments, and the contradictions that result from them.

The following are a list quotes recently penned by Wilson in an article she wrote, mocking Geelong’s attempts at securing a home final, and my response to each of them.

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Regarding the Geelong vs Richmond qualifying final in 2017
“Given the Cats do play home games at the MCG, the complaining then was ridiculous … The notion that preventing more than 60,000 supporters from witnessing a final first hand when the MCG is also a Geelong home venue … is senseless.”

It seems lost on many people that Geelong are on record as saying they want every home game they play to be at GMHBA Stadium. The fact they are still forced to play home-and-away games in Melbourne is an AFL decision, and does not in any way make the MCG a Geelong home ground.

Until recently, in fact, Geelong were forced to play a number of home games at Docklands, and curiously, these games were almost against teams who call Docklands home.

In these games, home ground advantage was, in no uncertain terms, handed to the opposition, just like when Geelong host Hawthorn or Richmond at the MCG.

Geelong versus Richmond: MCG
“Dangerfield’s assessment that finals fixturing favouring the MCG challenges the competition’s integrity is quite frankly ridiculous. Of all the anomalies in the AFL’s scheduling and questions of fairness the Geelong case for a regional final is low on any rational list of priorities.”

It is factual that finals fixturing favours the MCG, which is the exact reason why all Victorian finals are played there.

Additionally, the ‘fixture anomalies’ argument is fallen back on far too regularly in this debate.

The AFL forcing Geelong to host games in Melbourne is at odds with just about every other fixturing decision the AFL makes.

Admittedly, MCG teams are forced to play one game at Docklands each year, but usually against an interstate team, while Collingwood plays two games there each year on their choosing, and the seemingly annual hosting of either North Melbourne, the Western Bulldogs, or St Kilda at the venue is the only example of a team handing home ground to advantage to their opponent other than Geelong.

And Collingwood cannot complain: it’s been two decades since they played in Geelong.

Fremantle versus Geelong: 2013
“The Fremantle final at Geelong back in 2013 … boasted a virtual capacity attendance of 32,815. Even that number would have been close to double at the MCG”.

Geelong hosted Fremantle in two finals at the MCG in the three years before 2013. The crowds were 44,460 and 45,056. If we are playing the numbers game, it is best not to exaggerate.

Other interstate teams
“And if we’re speaking of integrity why should GWS or Brisbane have to play a final at a ground less equipped in every way than the MCG or even Marvel when Collingwood, Richmond and Essendon don’t?”

This is the most baffling counter-argument. Firstly, Geelong are only lobbying specifically for those interstate teams to play a final in Geelong, because they know the AFL will never send a Melbourne team there.

The integrity issue here is not that of every non-Geelong team in the AFL. It is the fact that Geelong would not get to play those teams at home. Supporters of smaller Melbourne-based teams regularly argue the unfairness of their team having to go to Geelong, while teams like Richmond, Collingwood and Hawthorn never do.

Since 2009, Geelong has hosted every single Melbourne team in Melbourne at least once. The unfairness of that fact seems lost to the debate.

Reality?
“At some point Geelong will have to accept reality, put the rights of supporters first and park its campaign.”

In the late 1990s, Geelong literally risked their existence by going against the supposed better judgement of the AFL, and refusing to move all their games to Melbourne.

At the heart of this issue, is the fact that Geelong has never been a suburb of Melbourne, and championing the right play home games at home cannot be logically argued as anything except putting the rights of their own supporters first.

Inherent in this quote is Melbourne-centric arrogance at the heart of the issue: the rights of supporters, not the rights of the home supporters.

Well, we keep talking about earning the right to advantages, and being the higher-ranked team is meant to provide advantages. Unless, of course, you are located just close enough to Melbourne.

Why should Melbournians have to travel to Geelong, the argument goes. Geelong people having to travel to Melbourne though, well, of course they should have to! It’s the big smoke after all.

So, this article was written with a strong awareness of the many, and mostly, illogical, counter arguments people will likely respond with. And I will address some of them in advance of the probably mostly negative comments.

No, I do not believe or expect Geelong will get any home finals in Geelong this year, or for a very long time. But, on the logic the AFL act as though they use, then yes, Geelong should be considered for a final against an interstate team.

If you are not convinced; allow me to address some contractions.

Some say, well, shouldn’t Geelong argue Docklands teams deserve home finals, then? Chris Scott has said that multiple times this year alone.

Chris Scott. (Photo by James Elsby/AFL Photos via Getty Images)

But what about locking out the fans? Or, as per the argument mentioned earlier, if some teams don’t have to go there why should others? Well, marry these two arguments together, and then consider this example.

Imagine GWS host Richmond in a preliminary final this year. Where should it be held? Most teams would be sent to Giants Stadium, for sure, due to GWS’ small supporter base.

The Wilson argument though, is of course that, given the amount of fans you would have to lockout, it must be at a bigger venue. So, move it to the SCG, as per the ‘home state’ rule.

Simple, right? Well, in that case, Richmond would not have to play at the same ground as other teams would. But, also, as per the Wilson argument, that also lacks integrity.

Well then, where should it be, what do you think?

The Crowd Says:

2019-07-10T13:42:36+00:00

RT

Roar Rookie


I should have said glaring errors not holes, because I didn’t mean glaring holes in your argument. I just think you need to be careful of making factual errors because you lose credibility. Re-read my first sentence and you will see I said you had a point, but gad some holes (errors). I did understand your point about hosting Marvel tenants at Marvel and mentioned Richmond have done that in the past. They have hosted Bulldogs, North and St Kilda. I have never heard anything to suggest it won’t happen again. The Richmond Geelong final should have been played on Saturday afternoon. There was no need for it to be played on a Friday night in terms of fairness to higher placedcteams etc, but it’s a bit silly to liken that travel to travelling from Geelong to Montreal. Lastly I did check tickets for that Spotless final during the week too and you could get them. If they made another 1000 available on the day I don’t think it was a conspiracy.

AUTHOR

2019-07-10T12:07:03+00:00

You'll Never Hawk Alone

Roar Pro


I never suggested that Geelong never wanted to play home games in Melbourne. I'm suggesting they no longer do, and the fact they once did should not condemn them to do it forever. My point that “the only example of a team handing home ground advantage to their opponent other than Geelong” is not incorrect. Certain teams host games away from home, but ONLY Geelong in Melbourne, or the yearly Collingwood v StK, WB or NM game is a home team playing an away team, at that team's ground. With the exception of GC v FRE in Perth, or other such ridiculous situations, of course. So you didn't understand me. Richmond v Sydney at Docklands, for example, takes away some of the Tiger's advantage, but it is not Sydney's home ground. Yes I did remember it was a Richmond home game. Under the current circumstances, Richmond, Collingwood and Hawthorn never do. That seems relatively easy to understand. Admittedly I didn't spell that out, but I don't think you've found the holes you think you have. "Regardless, tickets are sold to members of both clubs first, so home supporters have never had a right over away supporters for finals." That's fine. But the 2017 final was played on a Friday, at the MCG. So it clearly suited Richmond fans. As for the access, well, Geelong have some fans in Melbourne, but they have a lot of fans in Geelong. I can jump online and buy a ticket for a Bob Dylan concert in Montreal, but I don't have the same access to it that Montreal locals do. Possibly a fair point on the Bulldogs Adelaide final. Yet that game, you know, the one time it didn't involve Geelong, was actually debated at large. Many people have said they earned the right to play at home. I'm well aware there were tickets on sale that day for that prelim. My understanding is 1000 tickets were held back and put up for sale on the day. I guess by that time people didn't think they could still get them. This was possibly so it wouldn't sellout so they could justify claiming they'd made the right decision. I guess that worked...

2019-07-10T11:18:23+00:00

RT

Roar Rookie


Sure, happy to explain. 1. My comment was only to give the full story, because there seems to be a misnomer on this site that Geelong have never wanted to play home games in Melbourne. They originally wanted to play games at Docklands. Other teams are also forced to, such as Richmond playing home games there. 2. You said that Collingwood at Docklands is "the only example of a team handing home ground advantage to their opponent other than Geelong". This is incorrect. I read it just fine, thanks. No, I wouldn't expect a Geelong supporter to forget that game, but non-Geelong supporters may be reading this. I was also pointing out that it was a Richmond home game, which you may not have remembered, especially considering Geelong chose to play home games at that awful stadium until sometime around then. 3. You said in relation to playing in Geelong that "Richmond, Collingwood and Hawthorn never do". If you meant “going forward” or "never will again", unfortunately you didn't write that. I can't help that. 4. My presumptuous comment is where you say this is a "Melbourne-centric arrogance at the heart of the issue: the rights of supporters, not the rights of the home supporters". All Wilson did was quote the AFL telling Geelong they wouldn't lock out supporters. Nothing about home or away supporters, nothing about having to accomodate people from Melbourne. Regardless, tickets are sold to members of both clubs first, so home supporters have never had a right over away supporters for finals. It is simply not true (another false claim) that no one ever worries about locking out supporters other than Geelong games. Bulldogs had to host Adelaide recently in finals at the MCG (and the crowd was bigger than the Docklands capacity). In terms of the prelim at Spotless, I can tell you that tickets were available on the day still. I know because I went on to Ticketmaster to check, because after all the carry-on about Dogs supporters being unable to get a ticket, I wanted to see for myself. Any Dogs supporter who wanted to go, could have. In terms of Richmond playing in Hobart it is a home and away game, there are 22 a year for each team. It is not the same as finals. My point on Freo is that you mentioned quite rightly that Wilson was wrong in saying double the crowd would have gone to the MCG. In fact, not many more were there than would have gone to Kardinia Park, so fair enough. I just wanted to point out that this is not the case for more highly supported (or geographically closer) teams travelling from interstate. Aside from GWS or Gold Coast, Freo would attract the least supporters to a game in Melbourne.

AUTHOR

2019-07-10T08:39:23+00:00

You'll Never Hawk Alone

Roar Pro


No. It’s not their main ground, nor is it a complete AFL venue. GMHBA is

2019-07-10T08:28:30+00:00

RT

Roar Rookie


If Bulldogs want to play a final in Ballarat should they be allowed to?

2019-07-10T07:26:13+00:00

PriddisJunior

Roar Rookie


I meant there wouldn't be enough tickets for everyone who wanted them. We don't disagree.

AUTHOR

2019-07-10T05:48:01+00:00

You'll Never Hawk Alone

Roar Pro


Yes but the more unique anyone ground is, the more different away grounds are. So it should be equally hard going away. But no one says that. But that's so exceptionally arrogant and selective. "Proper ground" haha. The MCG is extremely wide, the SCG is extremely short, Subiaco was also extremely narrow, Docklands has a roof. Surely all these things are just as relevant in terms of specific home advantages, but no, like all the other sheep you just think the Geelong narrowness matters. It's so incredibly selective

AUTHOR

2019-07-10T05:37:45+00:00

You'll Never Hawk Alone

Roar Pro


Right. Do you not see how Geelong gets shafted with this way of thinking though? If some have to go there, but others don't, it's not fair. But you don't think it's unfair on Geelong not being able to play at home. Anyway if you want to get technical, maybe Geelong should have to play all their finals at the opponent's ground. I mean, MCG teams get to play away Geelong finals at home, so shouldn't interstate teams as well? After all, the SCG is no less Sydney's home than the MCG is Richmond's. And no amount of Caro spin is going to make the MCG Geelong's home ground

AUTHOR

2019-07-10T05:29:04+00:00

You'll Never Hawk Alone

Roar Pro


I guess I'll address them then. 1. Explain why it matters how recently they requested it. That it's not always been the case doesn't make it right. Maybe it was always wrong. And I never said all games at Docklands were forced, but that they were forced up until recently. For roughly a decade they openly said they didn't want games there. 2. Perhaps there were glaring holes in your reading of the argument. I specified that other MCG teams play at Docklands. I just highlighted Collingwood becuase they host a Docklands specific team there every year. And it's strange to assume a Geelong fan wouldn't remember where that game was held, given it kick started their greatest ever era. And that one game they hosted a few miles away from home doesn't make up for the many Geelong have hosted literally at Richmond's home ground. 3. By never I meant never from this point. The way the AFL is currently thinking they would never currently send Richmond there. 4. No I'm not being presumptuous. I'm making the point that no one ever worries about lock outs other than Geelong games. No one cared about Richmond playing in Hobart in 2016, or a prelim at Spotless the same year. Caro even said in a podcast yesterday that was okay because it probably didn't lock out that many. It's either okay or its not... On the Freo thing I'm not sure what your point is. Those other teams you've listed aren't Freo.

AUTHOR

2019-07-10T05:18:14+00:00

You'll Never Hawk Alone

Roar Pro


Thankyou kindly

2019-07-10T01:19:25+00:00

RT

Roar Rookie


Reality sucks.

2019-07-10T01:09:18+00:00

RT

Roar Rookie


Actually not completely true. Tickets are made available to all members of both clubs at the same time for a final. Unfortunately a final in Geelong means less tickets for members than the Grand Final and you could easily miss out. Too bad if you have already forked out for aurdares.

2019-07-09T18:57:10+00:00

PriddisJunior

Roar Rookie


It is amazing how much of a GF is won in the battle between the ears and how clear it is when a player or a team is losing it. It would be good to see tigers or dogs get back there knowing they would be ready to go.

2019-07-09T18:44:01+00:00

PriddisJunior

Roar Rookie


Ticket availability would be an issue for some. I'd love to get to a game down in Geelong, a final would be the best of all. Did cats request to not play at the G again after round 18?

2019-07-09T08:31:29+00:00

Cat

Roar Guru


Whats stopping them from traveling to Geelong?

2019-07-09T04:14:22+00:00

Boo

Guest


Mattician Caroline Wilson like nearly all Afl journos says stupid things.Glad statue of Winmar in Perth what he did at Vic Park one of the simplest yet most evocative statements about racism.

2019-07-09T01:57:55+00:00

RT

Roar Rookie


By help, do you mean, does that address the glaring errors in this article? No it doesn't.

2019-07-08T21:34:17+00:00

Boo

Guest


There would be no AFL as we now no it without corporate support so we cannot just get rid of them on the biggest day of the year.

2019-07-08T17:18:58+00:00

Shane

Guest


Thanks all the same arrogant Tiger supporters, but we don't need you telling us what is good for us. Does that help?

2019-07-08T15:21:21+00:00

Goalsonly

Roar Rookie


Wilson is a top footy journo if there is such a thing but on this one her laughter gives her away. Is she the only cackling about this or is it a thing in the corridors of power. "Giggle giggle Geelong want to play home games in Geelong ho ho ho do they think they are? Don't they know? Giggle Giggle." Yuk it up sister! Heard any good ones lately? Yeah cats playing more home games in Geelong. What's interesting is just how quickly her little jollies turned bitter and we get the "whinging" insult being cast. Good article and no decent against arguments so far. Ground size? Odd fixturing anomaly's? Different club crowd numbers? Rewriting Richmonds games? (I loved Richmonds GF victory but don't polish it with BS it might stain.) Nothing in the way of relevant argument. No salient point within 80 k (from the MCG to Kardina) of the obvious point this fine article drives HOME.

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