Do Wellington Phoenix deserve to be in the A-League?

But when Auckland had a fulltime team nobody was interested.

they add nothing to the Australian league .they are there at the expense of an asussie team . Our juniors are the biggest losers with a foreign team . I would rather Wollongong wolves be in the league a local team supporting local players and giving local juniors on the south coast an avenue to play in the A league .there are no derbys with NZ teams. they bring nothing to benefit our league . Our league makes their players better players not the other way around . they are team i have zero interest in . Local fans can never go to their away games too far away .there are no local derbys with a NZ team .we need to advance our own league our own players our our own juniors and encourage local derby's and improve the standard for our local players so much of Australia is missing from the A league which means so many juniors outside of the nine teams have no avenue to ever play in the A league without having to leave home or travel six to ten hours a week to a capital city club .Our junior rep teams poor results overseas prove this

1. The (only) international game makes being offshore irrelevant 2. A League adds NZ to it's advertising appeal 2. We might never get it back if we ditch them 4. From Adelaide, it's no more or less relevant than Brisbane or Perth 5. We re an ANZAC league for the only game known to be played at Gallipoli, why isn't that stressed?

Isn't this a moot point now with the independent league?

After their "effort" in Brisbane tonight, the answer is a resounding no. If they don't pay their Metrics fine before the 30th August, strip their license and give it to someone who cares.

Ben we are going to surprise a few and if we sign the other Korean... I think we will play in a 4 - 1 - 4 - 1 formation with a visa striker still to be signed and with maybe another back . I love this and IMO we have assuming we sign K2 an amazingly attacking midfield.... the trick is getting both Oar & Silvera to drop back and this could mean Oar coming off at say the 60 minute mark and weeMac coming on as Oar's older legs or maybe pushing Sanh-Ho out and Nisbet coming into the centre of midfield... put a decent striker in front of those four players who can all score and we are in for one hell of a season especially if we get a striker who can play back to goals... but the mid field will look something like this and by heavens there is goals in this set up... ..................... Eun-Sun................... Silvera ... Sang-Ho .... DDS .... Oar Subs ,... weeMac, Nisbet , Melling...

Off-topic, MIddy, but your mob have probably made signing of the season in Kim Eun-Sun. That is a seriously good pick-up and the muted reaction from the rest of the A-League community suggests they have little idea as to what a coup it is. He's the type of player Mariners can build a team around and given his age and issues in Korea, may well be happy to stay in Gosford for a two or three years.

This always gets things going this topic. Lets put the actual facts on the table. Australia wanted to leave Oceania to join Asia and this would mean in the words of Les Murray regular meaningful games for our national teams... beyond this participation for our professional national competition in the Asian Champions League. This move was / is the single biggest event over the last say 50 years to grow and improve Football in Australia. To leave we needed Oceania to agree which they did not.... Frank Lowy struck a deal with NZF that he would look after and ensure a professional team in NZ as a way to get NZF to agree. We should never forget without NZF we would still be in Oceania and IMO Hal would have died if this had happened. The counter to this was the NZ professional team would met and maintain certain standards and NZF would provide full support to the NZ team in the to be created new Australian National Domestic Competition. Their are two questions, the first is how long does Australian Football need to support NZ Football for our escape to Asia... the second is has the NZ professional team maintained and met the standards expected. The first question from Frank Lowy, was 10 to 15 years and by then the NZ team should be able to earn its place on merit and NZF should be stronger... NZF has if anything gone backwards ... The second question have NZ professional teams over time met standards required, by my cals have had about 4 solid years, 6 terrible years and the balanced mixed.... on balance IMO they have come nowhere near meeting there end of the deal. We should never forget without NZF releasing us from Oceania, Football in Australia would struggle hugely ... having said that and using Frank Lowy's 10 to 15 year time table, me thinks the Nix's need to no longer show they have potential but become a powerhouse in NZ and be very competitive in Hal ... otherwise they become a bad joke...

Does Australia deserve to be in the Asian Confederation making it easier for them to qualify for the world cup?? If they were in Oceania they would have to play the 5th placed South American team? Why did Australia move? To help improve their chances of top quality football. So why would you deny them that chance? The Phoenix have been consistently better over the years then the Newcastle Jets and how about that super successful team the Central Coast Mariners that no one cares about including the owners? The question is does the Phoenix harm Australian football? No. Anyone who says otherwise is just a silly Nationalist. If anything, Australia should want to add more teams to increase the competition, grow the sport in the region (both countries will do better if the region gets better). There should be more teams in Australia and one in Auckland. The travel is nothing consider most teams travel to Perth. Last I checked Sarpeet Singh was playing against Tottenham for Bayern Munich, the top scorer in the league played for the Phoenix and NZ not Australian U-20's just about made the Quarterfinals of the World Cup. Does it benefit Australian football? Directly? No. indirectly, absolutely. There is everything to be gained to be competing against top talent weekly, may I also remind you players from the Phoenix such as Marco Rojas and Kostas Barbarouses ended up moving to Australian teams and lighting those teams up. As I said any other argument is pure Populist Nationalism which unfortunately seems to be growing in Australia lately. I'm a dual national from both Aussie and NZ and have always seen the relationship as one where both of us help each other for mutual benefit (Remember the ANZACS), if Australia thinks it can go it alone, that's fine. But to point out arguments of how ridiculous NZ being in an Australian league is, is simply to point out arguments made by many Asian nations of how ridiculous it is to have Australia compete in Asia. More teams in both Australia and New Zealand and support, encouragement and promotion of the league in general would help rather than continuing negativity and cynical comments.

A kiwi team in an aussie league makes as much (if not more) sense as Aussie land in Asian competitions. Geography wise they are both no-nos....but logically, thumbs up for both cases!

There should be diddly NZ sporting entities in our domestic leagues.

Go Pheonix, personally the biggest issue they face is getting an appropriate stadium to play in, Westpac is a big f____g dinosaur.

Fun. I didn't think I made any mistakes or fantasies in my comment, but hey I shall play along. 1. So they had a right to apply to be a club in the A-league. Yes, due to a deal but still that was the agreement. 2. I would like to know what the performance conditions specifically were because my knowledge is clearly limited compared to yours. Then again I am merely a fan of a club, and not even the club at question. Don't you find it infuriating that every time it has been suggested that the Phoenix are guaranteed to be out due to certain measures, they inevitably find a way to match those measures and are playing the next year. 3. Well, if you look at every other code in Aus that has a New Zealand team in it they seem to find some benefit. Specifically a lot of teams are capitalising on decent development of players. See their player drain to Europe, and other Australian teams. 4. Stunningly, Australians won't watch a New Zealand team. I will fully agree with that. It's not an Australian team. I would also claim that Australians don't watch teams that are struggling and sometimes Australians don't watch Fox Sports. I certainly don't. Well, unless they make the finals, or are playing against a team you don't like. Australians get pretty keen on them then. A lot of the fans I know actually root for the Phoenix if their team isn't playing. And I would claim they have developed Australian players. Durante (became a NZer), Burns, Vukovic are the big names. Now, not only that but they develop New Zealand players which seem to play a decent role for clubs in Australia. Shane Smeltz, Kosta Batrbarouses, Glen Moss, Marco Rojas. 5. Yes god forbid New Zealand compete in an Australian league. This must be like when all those Welsh teams were told to get on out of the EFL. Oh wait, they're still there. Much like the Cypriots in Greece, the Liechtensteiners in Switzerland , San Marino in Italy, Monaco in France, Canada in the USA, and even for that brief period Australia in Singapore. Year I was born. Tell you what I am more than happy for a New Zealand team to participate. I can't wait to see the increased Fox Sports numbers over a local full time team that makes up the numbers in the new system. Once we get to 10 Melbourne teams I'm sure all the fans will watch the Melbourne 9th best team. I'm sure they won't be in the millions or beating a NZ team. 6. Its one team. I am not sure if you're hallucinating some of the expansions people come up with. Its one team, its not half the league. The AFL with the funding it gets, spends a lot of time developing and attempting to get supporters in from NZ because of the potential it offers. Much like the English football teams, the Spanish, the Italians and whomever else, if it effects the income in any positive way there will be an attempt to cash in on the untapped market. See this years friendlies. Even if there is no NZ team, money will be spent in NZ. I have no problem with new clubs coming in. They're going to have to if there is any legitimate attempt at a promotion/relegation system in. I just don't see what legitimate benefits removing a stable team has. For that matter, I don't think that's a good move even if we had 6 teams in the competition.

Fair point... but you have just answered it yourself. Do Perth? Listen I presume there are people behind the scenes well paid to look after the accounting and passports and such. If the team were in such a bad place financially they couldn't afford it and/or travel regressed back to the 1950's then I'd agree - too much effort.

And so Australia return to their rightful place in Oceania so NZ have a rightful chance to develop their football. Some people.

Just as a tip, when arguing a case avoid shouting (caps) and absolutisms (which rarely hold up to scrutiny). Otherwise there is the risk the comments come across like a drunk Uncle at Christmas explaining as to why the Earth is flat.

Silly question till there is 16 teams that can financially survive. Phoenix are doing so because they have the structure. You may as well ask should CCM? Of course they should

There are a number of mistakes, myths and fantasies in this article and the accompanying comments. HERE ARE THE FACTS. 1. Wellington Phoenix are only in the A-League because of a FIFA technicality. When Frank Lowy transferred Australia out of the Oceania Confederation into the Asia Confederation, he could only do so with the agreement of Oceania. They demanded a place in the A-League for a NZ club as the price of that agreement. Lowy knew it was essential for Australia to move into Asia so very reluctantly he had to agree but he ensured there would be a set of performance conditions on the NZ club's long term entry. 2. Phoenix have NEVER met those conditions and would have been automatically removed at the end of this season, had not the independent body been set up to administer the A-League. 3. The owner's of the Wellington Phoenix have since been lobbying endlessly to obtain a permanent agreement to remain in the A-League. This would be a continuing disaster for the competition with NO BENEFIT whatsoever for the Australian game. 4. FOX SPORT ratings figures overwhelmingly show that Australian fans will NOT watch the Phoenix. When they play in Australia the figures nose dive and they bring nothing in terms of marketing or financial promotion for the game, in this country. NO ONE IN AUSTRALIA IS INTERESTED IN THEM AND NEVER WILL BE. In addition they are holding a place which should be held by a club PLAYING AND DEVELOPING AUSTRALIAN PLAYERS. 5. With the coming Division 2 - promotion-relegation model rapidly taking shop, it is utterly unacceptable that Australian clubs, many with many decades of tradition and history, should be denied a place in the A-League because of the presence of a FOREIGN club. 6. The A-League was set up (after massive Australian federal government funding for the Crawford Report) to develop, grow, improve and promote AUSTRALIAN football. It has NOTHING to do with New Zealand in any way, shape or form. Wellington Phoenix MUST BE REMOVED at the end of this season and clubs from Canberra, Brisbane, Wollongong etc brought in, to take their rightful position in AN AUSTRALIAN COMPETITION.

They need to move to Auckland. Simple as that. Proper stadium and larger population. Although there's still the problem of ACL qualification.