Australia third Ashes Test player ratings: Labuschagne and Hazlewood the best performers in stunning loss

I'm glad you made that clear, managing workloads is a fair enough point, just I don't feel that it's up to the type of player you are to dictate how good you would be as a leader - it shouldn't make a difference

I beg to differ. There is something inherent in the different disciplines. Batsmen-only types only have worry about catching. Wickys have to concentrate on the bowler’s action, , catching and with specific feedback to the captain. Bowlers and All-rounders have physical exertion issues which preclude reflection and ruminations as the match progresses. And they tend to under-bowl themselves. I’m sure Border should’ve bowled a lot more overs. But he humbly underrated himself. —- Making runs, as a captain, only makes you good captain. Khan was a very good captain. I admire Khan for the way he led Pakistan to their high-water mark of their performance. Sobers was ok. —– TBC, I’m not saying that Bowlers, All-rounders and Wickys can’t make good captains, per se, it’s just that Batsmen-only types have more time to devote to the specific duties of captaincy. The only non Batsmen-only type to captain Australia well is Benaud. I’d say it’s similar for other countries. —– And whilst I’m a dogmatic polemiscist I do see your point of view.

This is where your outlook is incorrect. Just because there have been mostly batsmen as captains doesn't mean there is something inherent in them that makes them better leaders. Khan and co show that there is just as much merit in non-batsmen as captains. It's about the person, not the cricketer, that makes a good captain. And I'm sorry? You don't rate Kapil Dev as skipper? He led India to their first WC after a streak starting off the back of his 175* against Zimbabwe when his team were 5 wickets down. That's leadership if ever I've seen it. And Sobers? He was an incredible role model, especially off the pitch. He paved the way for West Indies cricket to succeed.

Occupying a position doesn't mean you were good at it. Khan and Dhoni are the only two I rate highly. ----- Bowlers either over-bowl or under-bowl themselves. Wickys see a lot of the game but are too close, figuratively, but are fabulous foil for a captain. They, along with all-rounders, have too much to think about when fielding ----- Why do you think it is the norm for captain to be a batsmen-only then?

You've lost me completely after the 2nd point. You can ONLY be a batsman to be a good captain? What rubbish. Try telling that to Imran Khan, Kapil Dev, MS Dhoni, Sir Garfield Sobers, Bob Willis, Courtney Walsh, and more. Can't believe you've overlooked Khan especially seeing as he has been credited to 90% of Pakistan's '92 WC win because of how incredibly he brought the team together both personally and tactically. I'm honestly stunned. Crazy comment.

I cant see how his bowling can be considered "poor to average" in this test. In the second innings, he bowled 39 overs and kept the run rate under 3, under immense pressure. He was accurate and should have had more than the two wickets, on a pitch which didn't turn a lot.

Jimmy Anderson will probably be back - combined with Archer, Broad and Stokes makes a pretty decent attack - won't be easy for the Aussie batters unless the pitch is flat

que? some people on here would consider him because it is only about the keeping i am not in that camp, unless we have spinners and a Tallon. As for above, Healy was a significantly better batsman than Paine. his average waned at the end of his long and storied career. Paine has dropped 4 points of his meaningless 35 already. in one series. where do you think he will end? 20? 25 if lucky? the guy has not played a decent knock in all the tests since his very good knock in the UAE. Something like 17 digs I guess? if he really wants to keep his spot he should get rid of the armband, volunteer to open, or move down to 10 and stop dropping knicks off his quicks.

Yes I have watched this series and the Indian series and he hasn't been at his best with the bat this series certainly - but prior to that he was making a reasonable contribution and helped Australia make a decent score in partnership with others. The average comparisons between Healy and Paine just serves to show that some people's perceptions of how good others were compared with Paine are not always accurate. I suspect the responsibility of captaincy is weighing on Paine a bit which may be affecting his performances. I think he's doing a reasonable job in the circumstances and I challenge anyone to come up with a better alternative as captain at the moment.

I was a fan of Paine but his performance as captain was where we lost it. Cattle didn't step up? Well who was on muster? ---- I've liked Paine and thought he had wretched luck over his career. Partly it's his function as a wicky that his captaincy efforts are compromised; mentally he has to be 'on' all match. His batting, at best, has been patchy. Taking the new ball early, v little interaction with the bowlers, defensive fields, poor choice of bowling changes. ----- Plus the team is trying out the nice guy persona. I'm not sure that's helping.

one positive of england winning is i hope they keep the same team. gives us still a chance if our batsmen decide to bat and our bowlers learn how to bowl in the 2nd innings.

first innings he was superb. problem was his cattle didn't step up to the plate. his last review was desperation. stokes had taken then from needing 72 when leach comes in down to single figures. as i said above i bet he was wishing he had siddle to bowl. also our batting is horrible. one player in our side per test that shows a bit of test match quality. smith and lab. but hey the johnny armchair experts will pile on paine. team game and 70%/80% of our team are underperforming or are performaing at their max, which just happens to be sub test standard.

i never wanted siddle dropped. woulda coulda shoulda stuff. but jeez i would have liked siddle to be bowling at headlingley. for me pattinson goes. he has to come in for old trafford. we are carrying wade. we need a batsmen who can be the fifth bowler.

both at lords and now at headlingley he has been ordinary in the second innings. not to mention that run out.

Ok I get it,you are satisfied with Paine's performance.No more argument.

Healy scored hundreds,Paine boosts his average with meaningless and easy 30 or 40 not out. When the team needs him,he goes missing.If you have watched this series or the Indian series,then you wouldn't have mentioned his meaningless stat.

Poor captaincy lost us this test. To be a captain you have to be a batsmen only (not a wicky, bowler, all-rounder, etc) To be a good captain you have be a good, or better, batsmen. To be a great captain you have to be a leader of men. To be an exceptional captain you have to know how to marshall an attack and to set a field. Paine fails the last two and glaringly so. His performance in England’s second innings was as bad as I’ve witnessed and evidence of my point. But his training wheels will play in the next test so all is not lost.

Good thing no one actually listens to your crazy opinions then. Finch in test cricket? No thanks, and Alex Carey isnt in the same league as Paine as a keeper.

And Don Tallon had a batting average of 17. He wouldn't have even been considered in this day and age.

Healy had an average of 27 while Tim Paine has an average of 31.