My wife and I are very different drivers. Where my wife will stay 5kms under the speed limit, I will be bang on it.
Invariably while we are out, she will point out when I have gone over the limit and am subsequently speeding. I don’t mean to speed, I don’t consider myself a dangerous driver, and I certainly don’t consider myself a criminal.
And yet, technically, I am all those things, and if I got pulled over, I would have had no excuse.
Teams that are being caught out above the speed limit, are also branded as criminals, cheats, or cynical thugs, I disagree with a passion, partly to prove my wife wrong about my driving, and partly because there is a difference between trying to win and trying to cheat.
Someone on here once said, “rugby laws are like tax laws; if you aren’t trying to do everything you can to get around them, then you are doing it wrong.”
I agree, and this is why I think teams that are high in the penalty count or high on the card count, aren’t necessarily cheats or thugs, but just trying to push that extra bit.
Occasionally these teams will go over the speed limit and become inadvertent criminals, but instead of speeding fines, they are faced with penalties, cards of different colours, and the occasional ban.
There is an underlying theme playing out right now in some of the World Cup media, as it always does when hemispheres meet, and that is that certain teams get more of a free ride than others.
Invariably this revolves around favouritism to the All Blacks and the free ride they receive, all backed by World Rugby of course.
As a disclaimer, this is largely driven by scribes in the North, and is not something widely seen in the Rugby Championship narratives.
Most people in the these parts of the woods understand what pushing the envelope entails, that to push the limits of our game you need to test the boundaries, and in testing these boundaries you will of course go over some times.
When you push the offside line, the force of a tackle, the positioning in a ruck, and you push this to the limit of what the law allows, naturally there will be occasions where you go over; we are all only human and cannot be perfect all the time.
When you push the limit and are right on the offside line, if you jump the ruck clearance by just a second, you are offside and will (or at least should) be pinged for offside.
This isn’t a deliberate attempt at cheating, merely a genuine mistake in an area of our game where no leeway is given, you are either onside or not, no ifs’, buts’ or maybes’.
In an era where the rush defence is in vogue, is it any wonder that so many offsides are called or predominately not called when they should?
When you sit bang on the limit at 110km/hr, one downhill stretch or tail wind gust pushes you out to 115km/hr and before you know it… offside.
Richie McCaw. The best. (AP Photo/Rick Rycroft)
The same can be said for the focus on high tackles. This Rugby World Cup has created a perfect storm of new frameworks for assessment of high tackles coupled with a natural flow of tactics favouring ‘rush’ or ‘aggressive’ defence.
This has created more ‘card-able’ offenses than ever before, and the statistics around cards issued back this up; there have been more cards issued this World cup than in any previous World Cup, bar none, and we haven’t even finished yet.
Those teams getting the cards are crying foul, and those not copping the cards are being chastised for favourites and exempt from the rules.
At the end of the day, the number of infringements a team commits does not instruct us on the intent of the team. Are they trying to push the rush defence?
Are they trying dominant tackles that crept up? Are they purposefully trying to slow the ball down in rucks? All these things do not make these teams cheats, merely teams that are trying to push the limits as much as possible and sometimes this creeps over the limit.
Now, as for my wife chastising me for speeding, I may learn to curb my enthusiasm, but consider if there was an incentive of $125k to get to a place by a certain time or to beat another car there. This is the dilemma faced by the players in this Rugby World Cup.
As an example, if the Wallabies win a semi, its a $25k bonus, win the final and it’s another $100k. That much incentive is enough to make any player start to push the boundaries, it isn’t that they cheat, are thuggish, or are a criminal.
They are simply doing everything that they can to win.
Paulo
Roar Rookie
Players can’t just disappear so the FB has to run through Them at some point though. If it’s deliberate obstruction it should be called as such, if it’s running through traffic then it’s running through traffic. Obstruction has always been one where there are different opinions.
Timbo (L)
Roar Guru
When the defense is setup with a perfect line and the 2 Toll Booths are adjusting their position and pointing where the FB should run it takes some serious weasel arguments to convince anyone that it wasn't planned that way.
Paulo
Roar Rookie
I don’t think it is as straight forward as that. The FB needs to run back, naturally he has 14 of his players in front of him, he has to run past them, if a defender rushes up and gets himself in the wrong position, as in a attacker is blocking his way, that’s his fault, provided the attacker didn’t overtly try and influence the positioning. TLDR: I’m may not have explained that well. If defender contributes to being in the wrong place, that’s not the attackers fault.
Timbo (L)
Roar Guru
Easy, if the Tackler is obstructed by a player in an offside position, they become offside. It is no Different to crossing.
Paulo
Roar Rookie
Yea, agree that is shifty, it’s hard to police though isn’t it, as if the FB is running back and everyone is in front where is he meant to go. I guess that’s the problem, there are so many ways to push past the limits deliberately, I’m not a fan of those and don’t condone. In my example it’s the difference between accidentally speeding and deliberately pushing on the gas.
Timbo (L)
Roar Guru
It is an emotive issue that divides opinion. I am tolerant of the "accidental" stuff. For example if the off side was triggered by almost a play fake from the halfback. Or the grey areas where the ball may or may not be out of the ruck. Some of those baffle me. There is a distinction between being in an offside position and being offside. A player can be in an offside position provided they take no part in the game. It gets squidgy sometimes on false starts, I am ok with it provided the player corrects. The practice of "Toll Boothing" where a fullback returning from the deep runs between 2 of his offside players preventing the defending team from making a tackle does not fit my interpretation of "no part in the game. Some say it is skill, I say it is shifty.
Paulo
Roar Rookie
All good points and good example to demonstrate how a lot of dynamic factors can be in play in one incident. My point was simple, not all infringements are equal, as your point also illustrates, but more to the point I also wanted to show that not all infringements are intentional. Teams trying to push the limits will invariably go over them on occasion. They are intentionally toeing the (offside) line but if they go over, it is more often than not an accident. Even foul play is often an accident, rather than malicious or intentional. That's not to say people don't do it intentionally, it is after all, fairly easy to stand on the goal line when the offside line is set there, yet so many players find it seemingly impossible.
Timbo (L)
Roar Guru
So it isn't true? Ritchie wrote a book on it FFS! My opinion is based on my real world observations, the attitude is by no means universal but it is not trivial either, that is why I used the term "leaked" and not engulfed. Check out this forum, members are divided on whether it is OK to push the margins, and you had better believe it, the loudest and most passionate supporters of it have their origins across the ditch. These are the guys that won't pay for parking until the inspector shows up, or will claim that they haven't got their drinks at a restaurant even though they already have them. I would never be jealous of a team that cheats, that is you telling porkies about my views. I follow the Highlanders because I like the way they play and they tend to be more honest in the way they approach the game. It clearly isn't a recipe for success but I have made my peace with it, atop the moral high ground.
Timbo (L)
Roar Guru
In my example, the tackle was still legal, but the offside was not, the player still gets his head rattled. The illegal action resulted in injury. Stuff happens but the old insurance addage that there is always someone at fault still holds. There is no distinction between intent and negligence. The lesson we can take away is that blame can be apportioned. He ran a red light, you were speeding, You were high and he ducked into it ...... this is where the grey areas might reside. In my world, it is not the referees job to decide which rules are OK to break/bend, none of them are. - It is a Morals issue. There is even a clause in the game that reads something like "no player shall intentionally break......"
Timbo (L)
Roar Guru
Oh, No....
Jacko
Guest
Through Ritchie, the AB’s “rule bending” has become the norm and has leaked into the population as a whole...................................................Thats pretty low Timbo even when your jealosy is at its highest......You are the one being a "whole"........You have just just decended to the depths of Stephen Jones and those crap Irish writers with this big porky....
Paulo
Roar Rookie
Exactly, with law interpretations comes variations. Some refs allow certain things and some don’t. Both could be considered lawful depending on your reading or interpretation. How long is too long to hold o to the ball? How quickly do you have to roll away? How far does a runner have to drop before it mitigates smacking him in the face? If all refs ruled consistently and all rules were black and white what a quiet old time it would be on these threads...
bigbaz
Roar Guru
Agree ak, but anyone with a decent moral compass know we're the margins are, not that that matters at times and if I'm coming over as a puritan, I sorry, I'm far from that and my personal record on the field is not pretty. But I am enjoying the points being made.
Paulo
Roar Rookie
I don’t condone deliberate cheating, and certainly not to the extent of sandpaper on a cricket ball. But, what about Saliva from a mint? That’s deemed as not ok. What about hair product in your hair being being rubbed in? Probably not for the same reason. But spit certainly is shined into the ball and sweat is certainly used. Throwing the ball deliberately into the pitch is not allowed but you can throw it accidentally, and it is. My point is sporting codes with as many rules and dynamic situations as Rugby has to have law interpretations and this leads to variations in rulings. Some things are black and white, some things are not. A black and white, lawful/unlawful ruling is never simple in a lot of occasions and points of view differ markedly. I agree offsides should be ruled on more than they are. Yes, I just want Rugby played, as opposed to not Rugby. But what is ‘Rugby’? What the Italians did to England when they didn’t form any rucks, was lawful, it was it Rugby? Eales being lifted to slap down a penalty kick was lawful but again, was that rugby? There are both unlawful acts now, so this idea of ‘Rugby’ and ‘non-rugby’ is clearly a dynamic concept and changed over time. And again, I am not condoning deliberate cheating, cynical, or dangerous play.
aussikiwi
Guest
The difficulty with your argument, Bigbaz, is that very often the laws are not clear. There are grey areas and fine margins. Be they rugby laws, criminal laws, or tax laws.
Paulo
Roar Rookie
Lol it is almost like fox sports said, “Jones? Ratue?... hold my beer.”
Neil Back
Roar Rookie
I’ll see your Jones and Rattue and raise you Zavos. Different country, same agenda driven bias lurking in the narrative. We kid ourselves if we think there’s any notable difference between the good and bad of medias - or their readerships. Then again, no one else has a Kearns.
Ken Catchpole's Other Leg
Roar Guru
Yes Baz, part of the reason I haven’t followed much cricket is due to the hubris of my nation’s team. Paulo, let’s ask a non Aussie. If Sandpapergate was exposed after a game that Australia won, and no sanctions ensued while complaints were brushed aside with ‘well we played to the ref (ump) and we got away with pushing the ‘speed limit’, would you write the same article? To be clear, I haven’t read the NH scribes you referred to here. When you start skinning an onion, a policy of ‘riding the legal line’ leaves you with no onion. In rugby the game then morphs into one of being aware of the ‘blind spots’ of officials or sleights of hand (if we all do it fast in one straight line it will look legal). Paulo, while I believe no thing is perfect (there’s a crack, a crack in everything. That how the light gets in) I also believe that the game is diminished by certain marginal indulgences, offside suffocating defence, for one. Also, dominant teams are using referee fallibility as a weapon, To the victor have gone the spoils. Professionalism and success imperatives have lead many teams to venture into non rugby antics to gain advantage. Personally, as an ideal, I prefer rugby to non-rugby.
Paulo
Roar Rookie
Thanks and completely agree thuggery and cheap shots have no place. I always thought of the difference as wanting to hurt someone and wanting to injure. If you hurt some one they will walk away with a few bruises and a bit sore - like the glory days of rucking, you would walk away with a few tiger strips, but they were superficial. If you injure someone, it is prolonged - think concussion, dislocation, etc. Far more serious and not to be tolerated or condoned. Thuggery in my view leans more towards injuring than hurting and can be, very rarely, deliberate but is more often just reckless and careless. On a side note, It is a good thing that they cleaned up the game, but the flip side is that I think there is more niggle now than before. Before, you behaved because if you didn’t you knew you would cop I t, now, everyone likes to run in and throw handbags and push and shove and mouth off. It’s tiresome.
Paulo
Roar Rookie
lol I do need to proof read a bit more don’t I? Damn iPhone auto repeat...