"Essendon players have a case to answer", says ASADA

Kiwi are we Conchie? Bit of a RAW nerve, still getting over that awesome bit of captaincy...

You do realise I also said in the same statement above they 'MAY' also be innocent don't you? I am of the opinion they are cheats. There is a big difference between that and them actually being cheats. ASADA may prove this to be the case, and if so, my opinion on the matter will have been bang on. Your opinion is equally as justified, the only difference being, I'm not telling you how to think. This is a high profile case and no matter how noble you and others think they are, people will always judge others based on what they have at hand. You are judging them to be innocent, based on what you know. Think about it, even if they are proven to be innocent due to lack of evidence, does that necessarily mean they are innocent of cheating? What we do know, however, is the EFC have brought this entire can-of-whoopass upon themselves by dealing in dodgy back-house practices, which I'll remind you they have already been found guilty of. Now whether that then extrapolates to cheating...well, we will let the AFL anti-doping tribunal decide that now.

Why would i apologize to you? I haven't called you the biggest idiot in Australian history. If i did, I would apologize AFTER it had been proven that your not. You are relying on information that has been leaked by either ASADA, the AFL or Essendon or an article from a journalist with a bias to either side. You know no more than anyone else.

Please insert the word 'modified' in my comment above.

It was my understanding that when this all started the head of ASADA stated that anything that wasn't on the "approved list" of substances was prohibited regardless of whether or not it was on the "prohibited list". It was a long time ago but I'm fairly certain that was the gist of it. The feeling I've been getting is that ASADA were impeded by the federal government wanting to cause a distraction from their terrible term and thus were unprepared after the "blackest day" announcement. They've already all but lost their case against the sharks 2011 squad (please they missed 3 weeks. Greg bird will probably cop worse for his police car tinkle) so if they can't get any solid sanctions to stick against EFC they'll become a laughing stock. I'd like to know what happened to all the apparent match fixings that were going on. We got a list of two NRL/AFL matches, 4 ALeague matches, and a couple cricket matches under investigation. Haven't heard a word since.

"comfortable satisfaction" You wanna elaborate on what that exactly means there Mister? I think you have made my point exactly. My definition of 'reasonable suspicion' and yours sounds very similar. All these people saying they have to prove something 100 per cent are dead wrong, so perhaps you might want to expand on where you think I'm incorrect in my appraisal of the situation...

Rick It is not correct to say that the players have to prove they are innocent. The onus is on ASADA to demonstrate to the comfortable satisfaction of the Tribunal that each and every footballer used TB4.

Biggest cheat ..... IMO that would be Trevor Chappel. Aussies have underarm problem.

@AdamG You seem to think these proceedings are very much 'innocent until proven guilty'? I'm sorry Adam, but this case doesn't work like that and it was up to the players to prove to ASADA they are not guilty of banned substance use. ASADA believe there is a case after hearing what the players had to say (which wasn't much allegedly) and are now taking it to the AFL anti-doping tribunal. Now to what extend they need to conclusively prove their case is a mystery question for everyone, because we are in uncharted waters so to speak. What we do know is that legislation allows special powers to ASASA in that they do not have to conclusively prove anything beyond reasonably doubt. They just have to show reasonable suspicion, which I'm sure even the staunchest of EFC fans would be hard pressed to deny. If you were to ask me whether I feel they are guilty? Yes, I smell a rat. In fact I smell a lot of rats and I want to know what really happened one way or another. I don't believe in 'you are innocent until proven guilty' in all circumstances either. This is a high profile case and as such people are going to judge it on the information at hand. There is a lot of information out in the public forum that shows the EFC to be guilty of these allegations, and I personally am backing them to be guilty based on what I have read thus far. Are you going to send me an apology should I be right AdamG? I have no issue with your stance on the subject and I have never forced mine down anyones throat either. I also have no issue if I'm wrong either, contrary to what you or others may like to think about people like me. My education is based around science, so if something is proven to be inaccurate, then I have no issue jumping ship. If one day a God is proven to exist, you can bet I'll be the first one jumping on the band-wagon with all the other former non-believers. Any other Pearls of Wisdom for me AdamG?

Even more interesting is this, BTW i am not advocating that Essendon players did take banned substances, i don't think they did, but this is very interesting. ASADA chief executive Ben McDevitt has said his organisation does not plan to pursue any alleged use of AOD-9604 prior to April, 2013. That was when WADA clarified its position on the drug, saying that as the substance was still under clinical development and not approved for therapeutic use by any government health authority, it was prohibited under the S.O. category. McDevitt said last weekend that pursuing athletes for their possible use of AOD-9604 prior to WADA’s statement would be ''unsuccessful and unfair'' because athletes and support personnel could not have known it was a prohibited substance. ...................... ''The advice I’ve had is that we cannot take the position that prior to April, 2013, that athletes and support personnel could have known AOD-9604 was, in fact, a prohibited substance,'' and this ...... Based on what he says above about not prosecuting for use of AOD, then ASADA wouldn't prosecute for TB4 either, unless WADA had specifically advised that TB4 fell under the S2 catch all prior to EFC's alleged use of it in 2012. And as far as I can ascertain, it didn't do that. To the best of my ability to find out what happened, it appears that WADA assessed TB4 against the S2 catch all in mid to late 2011, and then did nothing in the way of notification. It seems every potential user was supposed to be able to interpret the S2 catch all and come to the same conclusion as the WADA expert panel did. I am happy for anyone who can definitively demonstrate that WADA or ASADA did notify anyone that TB4 was illegal, to do so. Richard Ings sure can't. I've asked him at least twice, and he replies with vague statements about it being "listed" on ASADA's website, but not "by name" (???). At some point, WADA or ASADA should have made a definitive statement that TB4 fell under the definition of S2 catch all, and so was banned. In the absence of any such statement or notification or listing, surely, by McDevitt's own logic above about AOD, prosecution would be "unfair" because athletes and support staff "could not have known it was a banned substance" prior to such statement, notification or listing.

Why would anyone be sacked at ASADA, shiny arsed public servants when they stuff up are usually promoted. ATM ASADA has no sworn statements from key witnesses and then on top of that have offered jobs to key witnesses, it just defies belief really.

So we go for the same team! Nice! I actually think it's that bit sweeter that we've won these 2 flags while our biggest rival has been in the news for all the wrong reasons. Demetriou was privately known to be wanting out for the previous 2 years. That was why GilMac knocked back the chief NRL job in 2012.

Yes they have. More I think from media pressure than anything else. Do you think Andrew D was pushed or just wanted a little change? I'd expect Hird to be sacked if they are found guilty, as I would expect ASADA and the AFL to be investigated and probably a few sackings if they are not guilty. Even if they are guilty this case has been appalling. I really couldn't care any less about what happened in 2001. And who cares if they haven't made a GF since, my teams the current premiers, that's all that matters to me.

Many heads have already rolled at Essendon. Why James Hird isn't one of them is anyone's guess, although it typifies the excessive sentiment that is often held at Essendon towards overhyped people. Such as when they made the 2001 GF and all they cared about was that Michael Long was injured, John Barnes was retiring and Damian Peverill couldn't be elevated to their senior list. Interesting that they haven't made a Grand Final since.

Is there anyone out there that hasn't made up their mind already on Essendons guilt? I have my fingers crossed it is a public hearing. I want to see the evidence. If Essendon are guilty I want proof, same as if they are found not guilty, I want to see why. I wonder how many heads will roll at ASADA and AFL HQ if Essendon are not guilty.

I agree. But unlike yourself and Rick, I haven't presumed them to be guilty yet. I'll wait until ALL the evidence in in front of us. if they are found guilty then a 6month ban is no justice. BUT calling Essendon the biggest cheats in Australian history is a bit premature.

If Essendon are found to have undertaken widespread injections of illegal performance-enhancing drugs, it would justifiably by referred to in the category to which Rick Disnick referred. In fact, I think any sports fan with a brain would struggle to name too many blacker days in Australian sport.

"ASADA may well catch out one of the biggest cheats in Australian sporting history" Big call. Maybe you should testify for ASADA, you seem to know more than Andyl12. "What I don’t want to see is this saga just go away quietly" You have made your mind up, if EFC are found innocent will you be writing an apology letter on here?

I'd say a lot of Essendon supporters have been eating those crops, Neil.

ASADA have records of interview, emails, SMSs and media statements from both of them. If they want to deny them, and give another explanation for how Essendon's players grew so big so fast just after their club paid for all those drugs, then turning up to the Tribunal would be a plan.