A soccer perspective on NRL expansion

Not sure how Wests Tigers following can be described as 'limited' when they had the second highest home crowds for Sydney clubs and record memebership in 2016? This in a year when they didn't make the 8 and had off field issues.

BeatieBoy - Wellington is anything but definite - it is a third of the size of Auckland and doesn't garner great crowds. Even the Hurricanes only get around 15k, and Wellington is way behind in RL support compared to Auckland. People here really need to spend time over there to understand that these blanket statements about NZ needing another 1 or 2 NRL sides are way off the mark. Even thought Easts only get respectable crowds when they are doing well, if you relocate them you will get another Norths situation where you will lose what little support you have in that area. St George and Cronulla are quite different areas, a merger wouldn't work. Wests Tkgers, although having lost Balmain to gentrification, still have a lot of promise on the Wests side, who are actually quite a strong club, just need to sort out their structure and coaching. While your basic premise that NSW has too many sides, especially since the centre of RL is now QLD, it would be very, very hard to cut any teams and would be a free kick to the other codes.

Can't disagree with that.

There is a lot mentioned here so lets cut to the chase. Wellington is a definite. It is a natural rival to Auckland. Relocate the Roosters to Gosford. They have already bought a number of clubs in the area and they have the smallest following of any club and it will only get worse unless they move. Relocate the Wests Tigers to Perth. Its following is limited. Something needs to be decided between St George and Cronulla. There are 2 clubs crossing over areas. Cairns has a population of 142,000 plus more in nearby towns. It seems a good idea to have that rivalry with Townsville. Queensland deserves another team, but I can't pick it. So i have recommended 5 new locations and relocation of 3 teams. So a net gain in numbers of 2 clubs to the competition.

Rugby is the sport. League and union are different codes within the sport

PB A two way street that improves the English players generally who come here,and make their national team more competitive. The Age and electronic media play lip service to the Storm and NRL now.That makes selling the code harder in a non heartland area. The Offsiders(the national broadcaster's show) based in Melbourne gave 2 minutes to the NRL grand final results in 2015 ,and in 2016 this year a big fat zero the following Sunday..The executive produce of that show is an AFL fan .It ignores a contest which involves 3.6m people (taxpayers)who watched on TV.One has to ask, where are they coming from? I have stated all codes are involved in the muti cultural aspect in one form or another.From memory a Sudanese boy is involved in the Tigers U20. The NRL stages a In Harmony in League for people from different cultures.The code has recently won a global sport's award for Indigenous programs beating many higher profiled sports.It was the first code to have a float in the Mardi Gras parade. We hear and read about the off field incidents ,but little about the good stuff. I will only add this.The NRL has historically, whether it be because of News Ltd ownership, poor management been hamstrung by poorly negotiated TV deals, been left short of decent monies for grassroots and expansion.The 2018/22 deal will ensure the money is available to @ ensure the top talent stays in the game 2) grassroots is catered for c)expansion will not be underfunded if approved.

#Crosscoder I almost forgot why Matt King was being discussed - but - as you confirm, he was a player in his prime who went the 'other way' - to England to the detriment of the NRL. It's a 2 way street that one to England - luxury or hindrance? Media is always interesting. Fairfax (the Age) couldn't really be blamed for turning their nose up at corporatized sport (News Ltd owning several clubs and half the comp). It might have seem cosy at the time but clearly, as you attest - it was very much a top down approach and the half rrrr's'd expansion to Melbourne ignored structural foundations (grass roots). The AFL expansions of the Suns and Giants were interesting. Firstly, Suns into a not quite so foreign territory but a pro sports graveyard and the Giants into a hostile region almost more foreign than trying to drop into Cologne. However - we saw a gradual build, through U18s, to 2nd tier senior and then to top level - that was an interesting process. The Hunt and Folau 'experiments' were cynically using those players for promotion however for those of us interesting in it - it was a great x-code experiment that showed one thing - the NRL to AFL to ARU pathway isn't too bad a pathway but I suspect that door is firmly shut now. The multicultural aspect - I again made no inference about the NRL = simply that for anything the AFL might get out of Fiji, PNG, NZ etc (and I love the presence of footy in these places and the representation of these nations at the IC tournaments) - but, the ROI for engaging with the Sudanese community in particular looks a pretty sure thing. The Asian immigration has been less of a good sell for both the NRL and AFL - you might get viewers but very few top level players, pretty well less than a dozen decent players in recent years of Asian background in the AFL. Now - I can see you read my 'AFL being better focussed' as being a 'better than the NRL' but I actually meant it as being 'better than the AFL being too focussed on Pacific talent pathways'.

PB. Matt King left end 2007 ,he was offered a 4 year deal with Warrington set to be $600,000 pa ,making him one of the highest paid players in rl at 27 .not at the end of his career,.His choice to leave after 2 years and play out his career with Souths.Big money on offer in England because rl is played there.No draft his choice.Souths saw good value in King he still had plenty to offer. I am aware News half owned the Storm then.The media coverage in the Herald Sun paled into what the Sydney media Tele and SMH provided the Swans.Storm fans constantly complained about the lack of media coverage in Melbourne,stating News is doing little except making money out of Pay TV.. They did nothing for grassroots in Vic.Now they are out of the partnership, the code can go somewhere instead of marking time. No where has the Storm received regular one to two pages during a normal seasons has the Swans.Nor the 6pm Tv coverage.The Age practically ignores the Storm. Channel 9 are not worth feeding when it comes to promoting the NRL in any state let alone Victoria. NRL clubs before the season schedule is started, provide the admin with their preferences . It's a juggling act, and Monday nights don't help nor do Thursday nights.That will be a problem til 2018 when the Nrl takes over the schedule and not the TV stations making preferences. The biggest advertising income is the Sydney market then yes Melbourne.That is why the Storm are valuable to the Northern states.And why no more Sydney NRL teams will be located or flicked. WA with the time zone effect, the fact they have a bigger junior base, despite both growing.the fact a side was already there prior to SL)(and SL skewered it),will eventually decide on a team being based there.But the NSW and QED cups will get the early expansion preferences.WA juniors have played in the NRL. You made the comment about the NRL being propped up with Polynesian players and it would be a ordinary without them,.I responded.If you hadn't brought it up,no response. You then made the comment about the AFL being better focused on the multicultural side.And you wonder why you got a response.You need to study the impact multiculturalism has had over the years in rugby league post WW2. Every code needs to be multicultural but FHS but you need to check NRL and ARL history to see they have been at the forefront. The NRL under Smith acted professionally in their dealings with ASADA,no interfering ala AFL..This was a comment made by the former female head of ASADA. The Essendon mob could have been given the same retrospectivity deal ,they in typical arrogance chose not to and now look at the result.Their coach and the board were immovable. And again as to Cronulla ,they took their medicine reluctantly ,forever having that aspersion cast at them.In fact only a couple of those players from 2011 were involved in the G/F. If you think the club got a slap on the wrist.Lost major sponsors, minor sponsors,potential sponsor, coach 12 months ban, club fined $1m with part on hold.Legal fees in the millions.Players suing the club.Mental issues with players ,2014 wooden spoon, club ready to be thrown out . The Sharks Danks situation was a few weeks the Doctor twigged , the Essendon 12 months with players signing papers.No comparison. " Slap on the wrist" LOL. And to add insult that Age AFL spin merchant Caroline Wilson noted when the ASADA story came out" I hear there will be many more NRL players than AFL ones'."She has been as silent as a church mouse ever since. She claims she doesn't watch the NRL ,then she is a public expert.

#Crosscoder- Matt King left at the peak of his career and popularity in 2007 to head to England (2008-2011), then returned to the Rabbitohs to "ease into retirement". The Vic media and Melbourne Storm - from the start the News Ltd Herald-Sun has been very supportive of the side that it (News Ltd) owned. What was always interesting was the reluctance of the NRL to fixture to advantage in Melbourne and I think the Sydney based animosity towards the Storm was the greatest drawcard of all. Also the reluctance of ch.9 to run coverage - multi channels on the digital platform now are a great move forward for the non-core sports. The 'pay back' of expansion clubs is an important factor - Storm into Melbourne is big, and for the AFL having minimum 2 sides in each of Sydney and S.E.Qld is crucial. The value of a team in Perth (and the timezones) might be a boost but not akin to the value boost of a team in the 2nd biggest city (Storm - Melb). The multicultural aspect - I'm not sure why you fired up on that. I was making no inference about the NRL at all and I don't care to discuss it. The AFL has a strong multi-cultural heritage and has had to so as to survive and thrive due to the high immigration rates in Australia (the soccer folk might have whinged but the Sheedy quip about the immigration dept being the fan recruitment office for WSW is pretty well a parallel with almost any Australian cultural reality, institution or mythology that has to re-invent to sell to each new generation.). You keep trying to expand this conversation - if you really want to compare salary cheating with drug cheating then it's a slippery slope. The NRL did very well indeed to get the Cronulla lads off with a slap on the wrist ASADA deal and they've come up trumps with their first ever premiership. Gee - I'd be jumping up and down from the rooftops on that front too!!

PB I am aware where the Storm run their lower grades.I happen to follow the NRL U20s etc surprise. My point was to spell out the team makeup. Bit out of date referring to Matt King.He left played for South sydney and is retired.Keep up to speed. I could name a stack of players aport from Qlders. The Storm are expected to make a profit this year, they have record membership .This with little grassroots effort to date and little media support compared to the Swans and GWS. GWS is now at Breakfast Creek not Blacktown as original intended.Not really Western Sydney. Where the training base is ,is not where the actual NRL team is domiciled and where their players live. I repeat one more time the 3 best players are QLD origin.No surprise why Queenslanders follow them Please PB don't start lecturing me on players who went to England and their reasoning.I've been following rl before you were born. GWS correct and is still spun ,when the vast majority of their support comes from the ACT. The Swans NSW players from the Riverina was not missed.The Sydney media gave fluff pieces continually about Paul Kelly and how Wagga received local council funding for their local comp. The Sydney media actually provided plenty of Swans coverage from day 1 (35 years).The Vic media in their insular way could learn a thing or two. Not arguing about grassroots VFL in NSW well before the Swans.RL in Melbourne was very small something which I have never argued against,.Thus they have been working of a very small base in a far smaller time period than the Swans ,with a far greater base. The Storm pay for themselves via TV back to Sydney,SOO and Grand Finals .The NRL has barely left them starting blocks on developing grassroots rl in Victoria.YOIu have ignored my point, the NRL has only concentrated on grassroots development since 2006 at earliest.You are hardly telling me something I was unaware of. I'm glad you ignored the multiculturalism of the NRL ,because it is unarguable I have no problem with salary caps,I do with cheats.Drug cheats and salary cap cheats.3 strikes policy. The Storm were punished with G/F taken away ,The .Eels were hit this year,Dogs before.The NRL comp is still, more competitive than a draft system of the AFL. .And the stacking of players for new AFL clubs and clubs playing dead to get best draft picks has been well documented.Apart from lack of democratic choice.Don't get me started PB.

#Crosscoder Melbourne Storm runs their reserves in feeder teams in the Queensland Cup. the Melbourne Storm Netball team is based on the Sunshine Coast. Every year come SoO Melb Storm fans are supporting Qld because that's where the vast majority of Storm players are from (Matt King one of the few exceptions - and also an example of a required player who went to England for the money and not because he couldn't get a contract!!). The GWS Giants - yes - effectively have been a displaced parachuted side in it's first years - players all drafted in however at least the GWS feeder team is a GWS team in the NEAFL and not the VFL (as the Suns were for their first 'senior' year prior to elevation to the AFL. The Sydney Swans certainly were a relocated Vic team although the irony of course was that they had at that time about 8 players on their senior list from NSW - a fact missed by many. And had a NSW captain within a couple of years (yes - Albury counts). The point being - there WAS grass roots Aust Footy in NSW prior to the Swans moving up. Especially between the Murrumbidgee and Murray however there had been Aust Football in Newcastle/Sydney continuously (or near to) for about 100 years. The Storm - as a RL team really was foreign to Melb (Union at least had something in some public schools and out at places like Melton with a lot of Kiwis living around there), The RL grassroots focus in Victoria has been deplorable - the RL community never seemed to want to commit to the move and their success was a burden. So, yeah - if WA was done, then do it right. re RL and Salary Caps - I think it's best you don't go down that path!!

' PB" The Storm a displaced Queensland side."That's as silly as saying GWS its a displaced Victorian side. And the Swans a quasi Southern team. Yes there are Qlders,but there are also NSW and Kiwi players and one out two Vic locals.Young Tonumaipea a local was a reserve for the Storm's G/F side.Also one who played prior with the Storm is now playing in the ESL. It's a nonsense to suggest none come from Victoria,Grassroots in that state has only been given any decent support since 2006.Yes still a long way to go.WA has far more juniors, and is more receptive. Newcastle Knights AFAIK has had no real issues with the soccer side.Just as the Sharks would not with a local A League side. Anyway regionals are not on the NRL radar ATM for expansion. There are numbers of NRL players plying their trade in England ,many not PI or Kiwis.The reason many go to the UK or France because they are unable to secure contracts here.Expansion would ease that problem.There are Pommy players who further hone their skills here. The NRL has not had the money for interstate academies .A $100m pa extra injection into grassroots from 2018 Ozwide may well change that. Penrith has a $20m academy more will follow. The RL draft has been challenged by a player and lost.I can't see it being introduced TBH. In fact there are a growing number of young RL players from WA coming over to play in the U20 and juniors.There is a developing base from WA and the code has been played there since the late 40s.So parachuting is not the description .The Pirates bid is local, with local companies and local support. The beauty of the rugby codes they are popular with the Indigenous Australian,Kiwis and PI as well the Caucasian.It's not like soccer which is having an effect on junior AFL in Victoria,because of similar builds . We even have the odd American and Frenchman playing in state leagues. It doesn't stop the AFL from being " propped" up by players from Ireland,USA .IF a scout finds a player of quality or potential grab him.GWS also grabbed NRL Folau a PR prop and Hunt of the Suns a PR prop. As far as multi culture is concerned there are growing numbers in this country playing rl of South Americans, " Far better at pushing the multi cultural aspect:' Um in rugby league over the decades Greeks,Italians,Lebanese,Maltese,indigenous players,Pascific Islander ,NZ ,PNG,there are Africans in the lower grades in Sydney.Rugby league had the Jillaroos women's National team,before the AFL decided to have an AFL's women's comp.We had the first national captain of the Kangaroos a proud Indigenous man Arthur Beetson.Idris is part Nigerian. In fact I think it's fair to say the NRL is more racially inclusive from a fan's perspective.In the past we had issues, but not now like the AFL have had . Whatever the composition of the NRL is we don't judge colour (we are an all inclusive code) but skill, the NRL is a far closer competition because of the salary cap than the AFL.The 3 best players at the Storm ironically are Slater/Cronk and Smith. Because of the growth of rl in PNG NZ and the PI,they will continue to provide the NRL with the exciting athleticism and power that rugby league fans love.The players involved in the NRL G/F is further evidence of that. Added to the growing numbers of countries now playing the game,further player sources will be added down the line. And a RLWC is expected in the USA in 2025,after England given the 2021 go ahead.

I just think it's lazy to say Rugby when commenting on a Rugby League issue, that's all. I have no idea what the yanks thinking process is and I could care less.

#Crosscoder Parramatta and WSW is interesting - however I was mainly focussing on regional regions (which is an oddish phrasing). Newcastle has been a bumpy ride - more to do with Tinkler perhaps than anything else? Parachuting sides into WA would be required for quite some time - you've got about an 11 clubs metro comp (8 in the snr mens - 3 clubs are juniors only and recent additions - last 2-3 years) and the best talent are probably the FIFO workers in the mines (Pilbara and Kimberley). It's a long term plan there. Point though is you'd then seriously have to entertain the idea of a 'national draft'. It's not about 'competitive competition' (although the AFL is very competitive with respect to sides making the prelim final 2nd last week - just some teams better at winning the last 2 weeks of the comp than others) - it's about the access to and distribution of talent. The AFL DOES have a national draft - so unlike Melbourne Storm which is a displaced QLD side - the teams around the country have access to the general pool of players (like it or loath it). The irony of the NSW and QLD situation is the clubs up there have local academies to help develop local talent - and it's working quite nicely. The Swans certainly have their fair share of interstaters - as would be expected with the draft system. However the Swans have had a very strong history of NSW and Sydney representation including the vast majority of their captains over their time in Sydney being NSW products. The first coach of the relocated side was a NSW Riverina product (Ricky Quade). 20 years on the Storm has produced just what out of Victoria? You've probably right - the NRL and Fiji/Pacific is probably a more sensible in the head to head battle with Union. The access of players from England is also the vulnerability as many players have been lost to England. Certainly the NRL has been propped up by talent from the Pacific region - remove them and it's suddenly a pretty mundane looking competition. Rightly or wrongly the AFL has been looking towards that region too - Hawthorn has the first NZ product on their senior list (Kurt Heatherley) meanwhile PNG has had a half a dozen of their players spending time around AFL clubs but none has yet made the final step. Not sure what the future holds down that path.....I think for now the AFL are far better pushing the multicultural focus as the Sudanese talent coming through with some astounding athleticism - some of these lads are just built for Australian Football.

PB " Uneasy relationship" .The Newcastle and Parramatta relationship with the respective soccer clubs works .Lyall Gorman former Wanderer's CEO now Shark's CEO(also a former rl referee)has close ties with the soccer community.Competitive more so than uneasy ,would be my take. " Parachuting NRL sides" .There will be no parachuting of sides into WA if expansion goes ahead.It will be because of local demand by their bid team and local rl competition. Regardless the NRL have stated they will be expanding the State leagues QLD and NSW first of all ,and that means a Fiji side more than a chance. The GWS is filled with interstaters and the Swans have more than a fair share of interstaters after 35 years.it still hasn't stopped that code from expansion.The Storm are hardly unique. The NRL can access players also from PNG,the Pacific Islands,England and NZ,a luxury the AFL has not available. The NRL has a far more competitive competition, without usitilising a draft.

Leagues opportunity for a dynamic pyramid in Aus is long gone. Time will tell with football but neither could make teams (of the current competitions standards sustainable) work in a number of the proposed locations. Any time one discusses regions and alludes to 2 or 3 population centres it probably sounds too good to be true because it is. Sth East Queensland for example combines Logan with Ipswich and Toowoomba and the population looks great but Ipswich and Logan don't have as much in common as one might think they would being so close. Toowoomba might add a couple of hundred more people to the count but isnt part of Sth East Queensland at all. (Darling Downs Region).

Agreed Cathar Treize. Being from Sydney and a rugby league fan since I was a boy, I've always felt that rugby league and soccer should have closer ties. Now that there is very little overlap between NRL and A League season, I think having a rugby league tenant for winter and a soccer tenant for summer would fit perfectly for any rectangular stadium. Cricket and AFL are bed fellows from way back as both play on an oval ground. This type of strategic thinking would be good for both games.

What I find ironic is that the NRL and FFA/HAL have had an uneasy relationship so far. Up in Nrth QLD - that regional area wasn't big enough for both the Cowboys and the Fury. In the 'regional' Gold Coast, again - effectively 2 into 1 didn't work. In Newcastle - it's been a bit of a struggle......Tinkler or not?? Ironic that CCM has Gosford/Central coast pretty well to itself meanwhile the Dragons have the 'Gong to themselves. Just wondering - how much in regional regions that it's possible to have a successful 1:1 NRL to HAL ratio?? Let alone - the talk of parachuting in NRL sides to WA or SA or Tas......they already are using FIFO Queenslanders to fill the roster in Melbourne - how many more sides can they relocate out of the QLD talent pool?? I say that partially in jest - however - the NRL has to be careful about expansion that isn't seriously increasing the talent pool (and then serious questions around drafts, SoO etc come into play).

Rugby League and Rugby Union are in many ways more similar than Test cricket is to T20 cricket. To me - there's cricket; there's rugby, there's soccer etc etc.

The FFA could follow that policy by putting teams in Auckland, the Gold Coast, Townsville and Canberra.