So Ivan Cleary isn’t going to Penrith. Great. But why did the Panthers ever think he might be the best man to replace Anthony Griffin?
The events of this past week have given the proud club a serious black eye and must have fans pretty nervous about what the people running the joint are doing.
Let’s take a bit of time to reflect on this past week, but take the surname Cleary out of the debacle.
Instead, we’ll treat it like it’s just a coach who got fired, the coach who was broadly being tossed around as his long-term replacement, and the 20-year-old halfback the Panthers are bending over backwards to keep on their books.
Analysing things from this perspective, it paints the picture of a club where the tail is wagging the panther.
Anthony Griffin
Obviously, the coach who got the chop has more-than-reasonable cause to be pissed off at the way he’s been treated. He was in charge of a young team that was decimated by injuries throughout the season, yet had four players in good enough touch to play State of Origin. He was two wins away from being top of the table when he got his marching orders.
During his two-and-a-half seasons at the foot of the mountains, his teams won 41 of 71 matches for a success rate of 58 per cent – pretty bloody good.
No, he’s never won a premiership, but considering he’s got fewer than 200 games and seven full seasons in charge of a first-grade team, that’s not that big a blot on his copybook.
In short, this bloke got screwed (he also reportedly got more than a million bucks, so I’m sure he’ll eventually get over it).
Anthony Griffin has been sacked by the Panthers. (Photo: Mark Evans/Getty Images)
Ivan Cleary
Then there’s the fella who Penrith were reportedly keen to sign up as their next clipboard holder.
While he’s four years younger than the man he may replace, he’s actually far more experienced, having begun his career as a first-grade coach in 2006, to have racked up 288 games’ experience over nearly 12 seasons.
During that time he’s won 47 per cent of his games, which is not great, but then who cares if he’s won a grand final? After all, the Panthers reportedly told the sacked coach he was getting the arse because they didn’t think he could win them a premiership.
What’s that, the bloke they wanted to hire has never hoisted the Provan-Summons Trophy either?
He must have been coming cheap then, given the seven figures they’ve just paid to get rid of the other coach. Nope, this potential suitor was all bitter at this club because they sacked him early as well, less than three years ago, so he would have made them pay through the nose to get him back.
Oh, and he’s signed to another club for the next two seasons – in charge of a team that has virtually no hope of playing the finals this year, FYI – so a significant payout to trigger a release was on the cards as well.
Why the hell would you pay that kind of money for the services of a man who loses more games than he wins, has never claimed a grand final, and you already tried as your coach once but booted because you decided he wasn’t up to scratch?
Was his dad the CEO?
Nathan Cleary
No, not quite, but let’s leave the central relationship at play here aside and instead continue our nameless exploration of the Panthers’ bizarre pursuit.
Arguably the best young halfback in rugby league is at the club, although his contract expires at the end of 2019, meaning he is free to sign with other clubs at the completion of this season.
Now, Penrith are obviously willing to do whatever it takes to make sure this insanely bright prospect doesn’t go anywhere. And this halfback has intimated that he wants to play under the coach with the losing record.
Nathan Cleary of the Panthers (AAP Image/Brendon Thorne)
You could maybe understand it if the coach had been one of the all-time great halves, because he’d have insights specific to the tyro No.7, but no, this coach was a fullback in his playing days.
But whatever, the Panthers see this kid as the future of their organisation, so they’ll do whatever it takes to keep him around – apparently even let him decide who will be the team’s next coach.
Could you imagine that anywhere else? Sure, player power has seen a coach fired plenty of times, but how often do you see one 20-year-old get to decide who a club will hire?
And that’s the only explanation for what happened here. Nathan Cleary wants to play for his dad, and the Panthers would rather blow millions hiring Ivan Cleary – who, again, Phil Gould fired at the end of the 2015 season, saying he was “looking tired” – than risk losing their young star.
In fact, Gould said a few weeks ago, “I have an agreement with Nathan. If one day he says ‘I want to go play with my dad’, let’s make it happen. I’ve got no problem with him going to play with his father whatsoever.”
Now, I know nothing about what I’ve outlined above is news, but can we all just agree that it was batshit insane?
There have been articles this week saying the Panthers are the new big players in the Sydney rugby league market, ready to take it right to the Roosters, but could you imagine Nick Politis allowing a rookie with less than three seasons’ experience dictate who his club’s next coach was going to be?
While I’m sure Nathan wasn’t marching into anyone’s office and laying down demands, there is absolutely zero other explanation for why the Panthers would have dreamed of hiring Ivan Cleary.
The equation was simply this: get Ivan, keep Nathan.
Which means, even if they had been successful in prising Ivan from the Tigers’ claws, it would have only ended in disaster for Penrith.
Because history suggests the coach would have continued his present record of losing more than he wins, and not claiming grand finals.
And how successful can your club then be if it’s built around the idea that you protect your coach because you don’t want to upset his son?
The whole debacle suggests there are bigger problems at Penrith than simply who should be their next coach.
JVGO
Guest
And Flanno drops The Sharks and moves to the Jets so he can coach his son.
Bplol
Guest
Have you? Is he a good communicator or is he a lazy trainer? (Serious question and i know the "have you" comes across as passive aggressive it is because im genuinely curious)
Sylvester
Guest
Fluke more than good coaching, I'm inclined to think. They were lucky to even make the 8 that year and the results at the time were bad enough for Warriors management to not make a long-term offer that would convince him to re-sign.
Short Memory
Roar Rookie
Richard, it's difficult to justify your view that the drama and the poor outcome for all concerned is the fault of the journos covering the story. Phil Gould has to shoulder the majority of the blame. And Cleary also has to accept his share. Almost everything Gould has said has been directly contradicted by something else he has said. Cleary rails at "misinformation" but fails to tell his players or the public what's going on until five days after the story broke - and then only says (ambiguously) "I'm honouring my contract". When directly asked if he intended to stay at Tigers through 2020, he didn't say "Yes", he just repeated "I'm honouring my contract". A slippery politicians answer. Cleary since then has refused to answer simple and pertinent questions. He has "clarified" nothing. Undisputed fact: Cleary met with O'Neill. This information came from Gould - not a journo. The possibility of him returning to Penrith was raised by O'Neill. The conversation continued ("escalated" in Phil Gould's words) over the next three days. Question: How does this conversation "escalate" without covering when and under what terms he might consider the move? There's really not much else to add to the discussion is there...? So, while no formal offer was probably tabled, the most rational interpretation of this discussion (reported by Gould, not a journo) was that it essentially constituted an offer. Undisputed fact: Cleary took this conversation seriously enough to meet with Justin Pascoe and Marina Go at the Tigers and also with his players to inform them - at this meeting he gave them no reassurance that he was staying at the Tigers. Josh Reynolds - not a journo - confirmed this on NRL 360. Question: If there was no offer - and thus no prospect of Cleary leaving the club - why would Cleary not reassure the players he was staying? Cleary then remained silent on the matter for the next five days. At any time he could have made the simple blunt statement to the press he made on Saturday "I intend to honour my contract". That would have stopped all the speculation. But he didn't. Question: Why? The most rational explanation was that he was considering his options. i.e. the informal offer from Penrith. If there is another explanation, Cleary has been invited several times to provide it. He has declined. Clarifying nothing, and fuelling speculation. What other indication is there that the Panthers made a verbal offer to Cleary? Phil Gould's statement on Tues Aug 7 regarding the replacement for sacked coach Griffin: "There will be some more clarity ... in the coming weeks. We do have someone in mind and we are still waiting for an answer on that". This was followed a week later by Gould's statement to James Bracey during the game broadcast on 9 "(Ivan) won’t be at the Panthers next season. So we’ll move on and see how Cameron Ciraldo performs and then make a decision in the future.” Question: If Gould's initial reference to having someone in mind and a time frame of a couple of weeks referred to a coach other than Cleary, why didn't he just say the same thing he said on Aug 7 - "We've got someone in mind, we'll know in a couple of weeks"? Instead he said Ivan's not coming "so we'll move on". "So". That "so" is crucial. It can only mean "because" Ivan was not available. Cleary says he's staying at the Tigers, and next thing Gus says they no longer "have someone in mind" "in a couple of weeks" - instead he says we'll stick with Ciraldo in the short term, and figure out a another option later. None of this double speak and obfuscation is the fault of the journos covering the story. I agree the fans are the losers here. And the Tigers. But Gould doesn't deserve to escape blame for this debacle. And neither does Cleary.
Pomoz
Roar Rookie
BA, what you said about Ivan is spot on. He is a rebuilding coach and I don't want him back at the Panther's either. I just think he has more to offer than Hook. A bit Hobson's choice though. Now if we could get Bennett or Bellamy, that would have a seriously positive impact on our club.
BA Sports
Roar Guru
I take your point on Ivan at the Warriors, I just think Ivan's track record is of building a team well, but not being able to take the next step - both in a current season and over a period of three or four seasons. I agree fully with you on Gould. He put it out there he would win a comp. It has been identified that Griffin won't bring that premiership so move on. Whether it is Rd 3 or Rd23, it doesn't matter. Once you come to that conclusion, make a change. I haven't seen a single Dragons fan wishing their club would sign Griffin given there current circumstance. And I didn't see a Wests Tiger fans hoping he would come over if Ivan left. But because Gould is the figure head (and a large head) that is an easy target, the media have let loose. Jamie Soward had said his piece, now Whare has had a polite jab, but these comments get swept under the main stream media rug because they don't fit their narrative. Gould has acheived amazing things with that club - the investment in facilties and success of the junior program. No one can quesiton that and the Panthers are in a position to enjoy the spoils of this for years to come. It won't always be premierships but they should be competing every year. Ask the other Sydney clubs if they would like to be able to realistically compete every year. The Panthers have a system that means they will get the chance to blood young talent and get them playing for less than what they are worth as local juniors on their inital NRL contracts and it gives them a chance to observe them on and off the field and make informed decisions on whether to re-sign them. If you were framing a market for the Premiers for 2020 and every year beyond; every team would be pretty even because of the unknown quantity, but the Panthers would probably be shortest purely because of their depth.
Albo
Guest
And leave behind all his long term mates, a premiership contending team that he runs, a big pay packet & a bright rep career, just to be 24/7 with dad at a Club with an awful recent track record of player & coach management ? Not likely. In fact, I doubt Ivan would even allow that move to happen.
Albo
Guest
Not sure you will need to pay for it Tom ! Could well be in hand already ?
Pomoz
Roar Rookie
BA, I never said the Warriors were a mess for their entire history, but the few years before Cleary got there they were in turmoil in their administration. The Warriors finished 14th in 2004 and 11th in 2005. Ivan took over in 2006 and they finished 10th after having four points deducted for salary cap breaches. They would have made the finals if the points were not deducted. 2007 4th, 2008 8th, 2009 14th, 2010 5th, 2012 5th and a GF. That's not bad considering he only didn't make the finals once, ignoring the points deduction. After he left, 14th, 11th and 9th for the Warriors. Why does everybody want to sack Gus because the coach hasn't won the grand final? Hook has made the semis three years in a row. He wasn't going to win the big one, but he has done OK, time for somebody else. Honestly, coaches are replaced all the time in other sports without the CEO being sacked. Finding a coach to win a premiership is hard. I would be all for wanting Gus gone if we weren't doing so well throughout the club in terms of sponsorship, memberships, junior grades and having the academy a place. Not referring to you BA, you are a mug punter like me, but rugby league commentators are so immature in their thinking. Have a look around the world at what happens in other sports and businesses, sacking CEO's every five minutes does not build strong teams. The model the Panthers aspire to is having structures in place to produce talent and not letting the coach change players and the team organisation every five minutes because it is expensive. The coach is the moving part in the search for success. I wish journalists like Joe and Rothield and their ilk would read more, they might understand sport a bit better. I realise they aren't serious journalists and are akin to gossip columnists, but at least make an effort. Joe's revelation that Hook has a better percentage coaching the Broncos and Panthers instead of Warriors, Panthers and Wests Tigers is just a stupid premise to build an argument on. Read that out loud, well duh.
Tom G
Guest
The offer to pay for Barrett and Cartwright to move still stands.. I’ll even drive the removal van
BA Sports
Roar Guru
Sorry Pomoz, You can't pick apart Joe's piece as superficial in regard to what Ivan inherited vs what Griffin inherited and suggest the Warriors team Ivan got "had struggled badly over the years before Ivan got there". Ivan got there in 2006. The Warriors played Finals football in 2001-2003 (including a Grand Final). Daniel Anderson did four years with them, made the finals three times with 55% win record. They then tried Tony Kemp for a year and it backfired, Then Ivan had his 50%win record. So lets slow the roll on the debacle that Ivan was given at the Warriors. Joe; I quite like what you wrote here. I think the only piece of the puzzle not left examined is that (by all reports) it was Gus's call to move on Cleary three years ago. Gus is nothing if not stubborn, Everyone assumes that Gus was chasing Cleary to come back. Directors want to win as well. Anyone who has been involved in a club environment knows directors can be hard to control and like to go and do things that they think are in the best interest of the club (like getting Ivan back to keep Nathan), but actually aren't in keeping with the plan. To me it is more plausible that someone from the Panthers not named Phil Gould approached Ivan than it is to believe Gould has pursued Ivan.
kk
Guest
No Mushi, but I would love to do so.
Bfc
Guest
If the Director of Football is responsible for hiring the CEO...then there's a problem methinks...
Akari
Guest
The article reads more like an anti-Ivan Cleary drivel and there is no explanation as to why given that IC made it clear at his press conference he had never been made an offer by the Panthers.
Richard Patterson
Roar Rookie
Haha - brilliant! All at once! Meanwhile Brad Fittler gives up the Blues to go to Penrith, Bellamy backflips on Melbourne to join the Warriors, McGregor gets punted 1 week before finals - replaced by Ben Hunt so he can suck at both player & coach. Laurie Daley takes over in Canberra and Kevvy Walter still not wanted anywhere.
no one in particular
Roar Guru
Wayne Bennett isn't going to Penrith, he's replacing Barrett at Manly, and going back to the Dragons for 2 seasons, and coaching co-coordinator at the Gold Coast, and going to Parramatta after Arthur gets punted, and staying at Brisbane.
Pomoz
Roar Rookie
Well Joe, you have certainly stuck the boot into Ivan and then Gus and the Panthers for good measure. You have not bothered to analyse Ivan's record with the Warriors. Making the semi finals and a grand final with a warriors outfit that has struggled badly over the years, before Ivan got there and then after he left. You didn't look at the roster Ivan inherited when he arrived at Penrith. In short he had to rebuild the club, debut juniors and change the whole way the team was run. I am not surprised his winning percentage suffered when you inherit players of the calibre of Luke Walsh, Cameron Ciraldo and Travis Burns. Griffin meanwhile inherited a Broncos roster that included Corey Parker and Darren Lockyer. Ivan, being a glutton for punishment, then took over a busted, demoralised Tigers unit that had just lost its two best players. Griffin took over a Panthers outfit that was winning multiple junior grade titles and starting to produce the talent that we are now seeing in first grade. What you have written is a very superficial analysis paying no heed to the context. Griffin may have a better winning percentage, but having watched Cleary's teams when they are at their best and Griffins teams at their best, I know which one looks more likely to win a GF. As fo Gus, since he arrived the club has won multiple junior titles and now has 80% of its roster consisting of local juniors instead of blow ins like Luke Walsh and Clint Newton. A league academy has been built and currently we are ISP minor premiers, the first grade side is outright 4th and we are 4th in u20's or new equivalent. Yes, there are problems at the Panthers, mistakes are made and Gus has made two poor appointments, Hook and Corey Payne as CEO. Considering how many decisions he has got right, thats a good winning percentage.
Onside
Guest
Nathan Cleary to West Tigers next season ?
Onside
Guest
Nathan Cleary to West Tigers next season ?
Jaime
Guest
I would have Ivan ever time over Hook... Anyone who can coach the Warriors to a Grand Final must be an amazing coach and mentor