Football is the biggest loser from Sydney's stadium debacle

#Post_hoc No. That would have been the simplistic equation come 2025. If one ignored that the 25 year lease arrangement with the AFL was designed to provide the business model for the private operators who had bought the stadium. As it is though - and I gather we aren't entirely sure about the exact buy out cost - the AFL bought out the management and freehold rights for what is thought to be about $200 million. The AFL took out a loan in 2016 for $280 million, the remaining amount thought to be to " permanently service the stadium, which is also in need of an upgrade". (read link here from 2017 reports.) It was bought off a consortium of Superannuation and Investment funds..... So - ask why it was so worth the while of the AFL to jump on this 8-9 years out from getting it for a peppercorn amount. Surely that alone gives you an idea of how expensive a venue it was for the AFL - because it was primarily revenues guarantee by the AFL that were used to pay off the investment and provide a dividend for the investors. The AFL aren't getting anything for free here. TO suggest so is .... well..... I'll leave it there. The promise last year of funds towards the venue is primarily focused on the external precinct - which is in the interest of the city of Melbourne and State Govt. They want to retain the venue there.....so....the AFL has exerted a bit of muscle perhaps.....to get the State Govt to stump up some cash (finally!!) for the biggest game in town to retain the venue on the CBD's western doorstep. Read the justification - it's State Govt effectively locking in the venue for all users "Etihad Stadium and its surrounding precinct will be upgraded for rectangular sports like soccer and rugby, its women's change facilities will be improved and there will be guaranteed access for other codes and major events." As pointed out though - these what I'd call long overdue funds are in return for a 20 years extension from 2037 to 2057 of the AFL GF at the MCG (that generated a bit of debate.....esp from Adelaide and Perth). This certainty is crucial for the state Govt to achieve what?? well, the next major upgrade at the MCG based on the tried and true model of MCC debt based on AFL locked in. The reality is - it's a very very good deal for the state Govt - - is far cheaper than stumping up their own money to rebuild the Great Southern Stand!! (somehow I doubt you've read this far).

So for $30,000,030 the AFL has a Stadium worth in the vicinity of what $500 million, in the Centre of the second largest City in Australia and have now been given a further $125 million. Keep denying it all you want.

#Mike Tuckerman Is this the upgrade from about 5 years ago? It was forecast at around $186 million. Largely improving upon existing facilities rather than knocking down and rebuilding and entire stadium. Hmmmm.....perhaps that's why there was no outcry?? It might have seem a reasonably prudent expenditure on a community asset to allow it to continue to serve its purpose. And afterall, the SCG - it's an oval upon which all codes and the national game of cricket can be played - - it's a universal facility is it not?? And one much loved - because of in no small part the retention of the old members and ladies stands. It is historic and iconic. That said - I attended a Swans game there last year and the Victor Trumper stand is a bit basic. But the view across the ground to those green tin roofed old stands was 'special'.

#Post_hoc Ironically enough - part of the point you think you're making should not at all be part of your argument. The Brisbane training facility/womens base is a public/private partnership - a total bill of $70 million. Funding split as below: AFL/Brisbane FC: $10 million Fed Govt: $15 million Ipswich Council: $12 million Springfield Land Corporation: $18 million QLD State Govt: $15 million So - like anyone can do - identify a project, make a case for it, and seek funding from the various tiers of Govt - and make a contribution themselves. In this case - the local council and the land authority were both super keen to get it done. There's zero comparison of this sort of project to a fully State Govt funded demolition/rebuild of the SFS. The main comparison of an onsite demolition/rebuild was the 2 phased MCG (with minimal Govt funding) or the Adelaide Oval (wherein a fair bit of money was also spent on the walk bridge and river precinct.....so - I look on with interest at the Moore Park precinct re the SFS). Btw - it's also why we look with interest at the Tarneit stadium project. Local council supportive. The stadium said to be fully funded via a 'value capture' model. That will be interesting to watch play out......it's a bit of a buzz phrase 'value capture'....

#Post_hoc re 'Marvel' stadium. You said "was built on land given to the AFL by the state government." Reading this article from The Age March 2012. "One of the first land deals orchestrated by the Kennett government in 1999 in an effort to kickstart the Docklands precinct saw the 136,970 square metre New Quay precinct, roughly five city blocks in size, sold to developers MAB Corporation for $3 million." Plus an additional 'levy', ($7,807,038) the final result was about $79 per square metre - - which was bargain basement but that's what was happening for other developers as well - "Sale contracts obtained by The Saturday Age show one large chunk of inner-city harbourside real estate that now houses the Harbour One tower sold for as little as $119,700." And why? Do convert a 'contaminated industrial-site' into an urban renewal precinct as quickly as possible. Anyway - I don't see how that equates as "was built on land given to the AFL by the state government." So - who was telling porkies?? btw - the article is probably wrong suggesting '1999'. That deal would have had to have been done earlier than that. Construction of the venue was contingent upon the AFL coming on board (Graeme Samuel was the man who straddled the AFL and Docklands Authority divide and got it done). Yes - that AFL would be contracted at the venue to 2025 and having contributed $30 million up front - would have the option to assume total ownership for $30 dollar at the end of that 25 year 'lease' arrangement. As it was though - no Govt funds, and the land was not gifted to the AFL - it was sold at below normal market rates but rates in keeping with other cut price land sales in the Docklands precinct to the developers (not the AFL). The benefit for the AFL as major tenant (and quite expensively so) and future owner might be via a reduction in cost at some point.....or....it might all be absorbed by the developer. That can be debated. But certainly your assertion is completely wrong. And true - the dastardly AFL (Wayne Jackson in his 'kick a Vic' era) did little to 'bat' for clubs like North and St Kilda to negotiate deals at Docklands. The AFL effectively forced North out of the MCG and into Docklands with North having no position of power to negotiate from - it's a miracle they have survived. I HATE that era of AFL management......as a North fan I was so glad that we 'stuck it up em' in winning the 1999 Gold Premiership Cup.

#Post_hoc I'm not telling porkies. One at a time - starting with your assertion "MCG has revived hundreds of millions $ from the state government for upgrading." re the MCG - I DID state the $77 million from State Govt. So - you've reiterated what I put forward and claiming it as lies??? WTF?? It was reported by Shaun Phillips in the Herald Sun on 17th August 2005 that that $77 million we've referenced was out of the Vic State Govt official 2006 Commonwealth Games budget of $697 million. The State ALP Govt stepped in to deliver that after saying "No thanks" to the then Howard Govt via Industrial Relations minister Tony Abbott with 'strings attached' (work choices) funds that had been offered. Note that Abbott went over and above anything that was legislated and it seems was trying to make his 'mark' here in a similar way to Peter Reith before him did on the waterfront --- and the PM didn't try to stop him.....a bunch of NSW pollies trying to exploit a Vic issue and the AFL for their own political point scoring and dare I say it 'grand standing'!!.....yeah, I had to go there. ;-) The overall project expense for the replacement of the Olympic (Northern), Members and Ponsford (Western) stands was publicly stated as $434 million. The Feds put in nothing. The State Govt put in $77 million. (a qualifier here - the state govt was contracted to cover any costs above $450 million were that to be the case). Do you know where the rest of the funding came from? Same place as the $142 million for the Great Southern Stand. If was MCC debt, AFL annual payments, AFL revenues and MCC revenues based in no small part on locking the AFL into long term lease arrangements inclusive of AFL annual payments (remembering the AFL got their members reserve set up in that stand). So - for you to say "MCG has revived hundreds of millions $ from the state government for upgrading." it's clear that you're the one telling porkies. How does that sit compared to $77 million out of roughly $576 million??? Even including the $30 mill our of $55 mill on the 2011 updates - that gets to $107 million out of $631 million. The AFL initially signed on to a 35 year lease from 1992 to 2027, and that was extended to 40 years term to 2032. And has since been pushed out further. The AFL was trying to renegotiate the stadium deals for tenant clubs - in 2009 - it was then reported the MCC debt was around $320 million.

The land was gifted, the AFL had a clause in the agreement that they could buy the stadium for the equivalent of $1 after X number of years. Sorry but that is not a tenancy. "Victoria's AFL grounds will get nearly $500 million in state-funded upgrades, with almost half the cash going to a makeover of Etihad stadium. " According to Former Victorian Premier Jeff Kennet "Andrew Demetriou has used his 10 years in the top job to secure hundreds of millions of dollars from governments for AFL ground upgrades, which has put the code on the top of the heap." 2002 " The Bracks Government has stepped in to secure the MCG redevelopment in time for the 2006 Commonwealth Games, following the Howard Government's decision to withdraw its promised $90 million contribution. Premier Steve Bracks said the Government would inject $77 million into the redevelopment, with the balance of $13 million to be contributed by the MCC." So stop telling porkies

#Post_Hoc The land for the Victoria Harbour (read Marvel) Stadium project was never ever gifted to the AFL. If was made available very cheaply, as were other packages of land in the early phases, to the developers to incentivize development of the 'urban renewal' project. The only point at which you can in any way connect the AFL and the cheap land is that the AFL were the major tenant of the property built by developers who benefitted from such an offer. That would be akin to the NAB taking up occupancy of an office block built by developers who got cheap land. And then - the AFL purchase the property outright - and so assume outright ownership of the land. It was never 'given' by the state govt to the AFL. Where are you coming from with that assertion?? The MCG has NOT received hundreds of millions. The 100% rebuilt in 2 phases (~$142-150 mill and $434 mill = $576) included only $77 mill in State funds and zero in Fed. In 2011 there was a $55 mill 'facelift' as they put it - for the Great Southern Stand ($25 mill from MCC and $30 mill from state govt). You need to understand - that while the MCG is mostly funded by the MCC (who manage it on behalf of the MCG Trust-State); that the MCC pretty well has no 'security' without the AFL. The AFL out performed their anticipation back in the '90s when the Great Southern Stand was built - so when the Northern section was attacked the AFL only had to extend their lease period by 5 years - the MCC/MCG get the AFL locked in with guarantees of patronage, finals, the Grand Final etc (MCC membership has a 'value'). This is important because - with the AFL being a venue owner and with a 60K venue for Perth - the Vic Govt wanted to ensure the MCG (MCC business model) stays solid. Last years deal was good and cheap for the Vic Govt. Locking the AFL GF into the MCG now until 2057 is worth so much more as - once again - it provides the MCG Trust the security to, via the MCC, manage the next major upgrade (Great Southern Stand Mark II?).

Because they are not from the West

Or When the AFL demand $30 million for a training ground and 'womens stadium' in Brisbane, or was the Swans and Giants demanding $100 million for there 2 training facilities. Which are only used by a limited number of people. Yet You accuse Football of being outrages AR?

I do find it strange that you cite an example of the away end at a derby for the reason being Sydney FC's figures are low. Why should Wanderers be blamed for not packing out Sydney FC's stadium?

That is a Myth. Marvel, was built on land given to the AFL by the state government. Land isn't free MCG has revived hundreds of millions $ from the state government for upgrading.

I cant imagine much of a market for that particular service.

While I cant imagine One nation or Tony Abbott types to be friends of football, the leftwing, despite their "pro multicultural" stance are no friends of football. Research The chaser, will Anderson, john Birmingham, christina Kenneally, krikey.com and the ABC and you'llsee their left left wing anglo-australian exceptionalism is to be despised.

Also, didn't the AFL stump up a sizable contribution to the cause - how much are the NRL offering?

that's got more to do with the standard of the A League than the game of football. Quality teams attract crowds, and high value games like finals. The NRL is the highest quality rugby league in the world (small as that world is for rl).

It says to me that NSW are receiving far too big a share of the GST take.

Gerrard did well in the MSL, Fowler was quite ordinary in the A League. I've watched his commentary on LFC TV a few times. My grand fear is, if he gets the job, he'll be another Aloisi - talks the talk but can't walk

well said Stu

Many sports fans on the Roar would argue that Cricket is our national sport, and you'd expect Australia's largest city to have a half decent cricket ground, well, at least to have a ground with a greater capacity than Hobart.