A draft white paper that details 24 recommendations for the establishment of a national football second division is circulating around stakeholders.
While the paper is not publicly available, reported suggestions include promotion and relegation between the second division and lower tiers in five to ten years time, as well as 25 per cent of smaller regions to be quarantined from relegation.
At face value, these two recommendations seem reasonable.
Two common complaints regarding the A-League are the limited consequences for those teams that perform poorly and the staleness of a competition that has the same teams competing against each other each year.
Indeed, with all federations except Northern NSW Football and Football Federation Northern Territory incorporating promotion and relegation in their premier leagues, this would leave the A-League as the glaring omission from the football pyramid.
Similarly, the benefits of ensuring broad regional coverage at the national level seem obvious.
While ‘regional’ hasn’t been spelled out, it presumably means ensuring that each state has representation at a minimum. Broader geographic representation will potentially engage a larger section of the Australian football public.
However, when considered together, the recommendations appear initially contradictory.
Promotion and relegation, after all, use sporting merit as the sole basis for determining future participation.
How can you quarantine some clubs from the harsh realities of promotion and relegation without undermining the legitimacy of the league.
One possible way forward is to use the existing federated structure of football in Australia in a similar way to that of Brazil.
In this system, the lowest national league (Série D in Brazil, second division in Australia) uses federation rankings to allocate a number of places in the league to each federation.
Rankings are based on federation performance in past years. In Australia this could include results from national leagues, the FFA Cup and the National Premier League finals. As rankings change so do the quota of allocations to each member federation.
(AAP Image/Brendan Esposito)
Federations are then free to establish their own systems to identify which clubs participate at the national level.
Possible federation allocation methods might include some type of ranking system, the most obvious being league results from the previous year but they could also use a tender process or even maintenance of the status quo.
How then do we incorporate promotion and relegation into this quota structure?
This can happen in two ways.
Firstly, one federation allocation method can be promotion and relegation within their member clubs.
For example, if NSW has three teams in the second division, they could relegate the bottom-placed team (even if that team finished third) and promote a different federation member club.
Secondly, the league can institute what could be called ‘quota relegation’. From year to year, quotas will differ from the actual number of teams in the division.
This may be because of promotion and relegation between the first and second divisions, or that some federations do not have enough qualifying club nominations (think Northern Territory), or that federation rankings change.
The quota represented by the club finishing last in the league is reallocated to the highest ranked federation which is currently the most under-quota. An example may clarify the issue.
Imagine a second division with 16 teams and promotion and relegation between the first and second division. The total quota of teams is 15. The relegated first division team is guaranteed participation in the second division.
Let’s say NSW had four teams in the division, but their quota was only three. Meanwhile, Northern NSW has a quota of two teams but has only one team competing in the division.
There are 14 teams left in the division, as one team has been promoted and one team has been relegated.
The quota represented by the relegated team in this example will be allocated to NNSW. They are the highest ranked federation with one under quota.
It may be the case that NNSW was also the relegated federation, in which case the federation composition of clubs would remain unchanged. If more teams were relegated then we could repeat this process as more teams are added to the league.
Could this structure work? Is it too convoluted? Does it give clubs enough certainty to want to nominate? How do you think the member federations would choose or rank nominating clubs?
Gav
Guest
1- Expand the Y-league to 32 clubs( SOUTH Conference 1- PGY 2- Perth SC 3- Joondalop 4- AUY 5- West Adelaide 6- Adelaide City 7- MVY 8- MCY 9- WUY 10- Melbourne Knights 11- Sth Melbourne 12- Gippsland Falcons 2000 13- Nth Tas (Devonport) Strikers 14- Sth Hobart 15- Canberra United 16- Wollongong Wolves NORTH Conference 17- SFCY 18- WSWY 19- SWSFCY 20- Sydney United 21- Sydney Olympic 22- CCMY 23- Broadmeadow Magic 24- Edgeworth eagles 25- Gold Coast 26- BRY 27- Brisbane Strikers 28- Sunshine Coast 29- SWQ thunder 30- NEW Townsville 31-NEW Cairns 32- Darwin Rovers) 2- expand the Aleague Finals to 16 (top 8 Aleague vs Top4 North vs Top4 South) 3- introduce Y-L to NPL P/R 4 up/down for each conference
Dart
Guest
My preference is to have a small second division (say 10 clubs) with standard league structure and an enormous third division (64 clubs / perhaps even 128 clubs) with a cup / knockout structure. These clubs go on competing in the state leagues during winter, as normal, and earn promotion via the Cup, regardless of how they perform in the NPLs. There shouldn’t be any quota system. Clubs should be accepted into the second division originally by financial viability, then by merit on the park. The market will then sort things out.
oldpsyco
Guest
Why not just force ALL Federations to comply with promotion / relegation at National League Level ? Why allow pen pushers within a federation to decide football decisions. If you win you go up! If your last you go down! End of.... Yes some teams will get promoted only to get relegated. Welcome to Football! It happens around the world! At least its honest! That will in itself make the fans happier! There are too many people within Football administration at all levels, looking after their own little empires rather than Football as a sport!
Lionheart
Roar Rookie
My earlier reply to your post below was bounced by the Mods for reason unknown. I praised your article and decried the little that I’ve read about the draft paper from the FFA working party on the 2nd division. It looks like a mini A League V2 with feeder clubs and Reserve teams for/of A League clubs, and failed franchises, maybe an NPL club – exactly what you would come up with if you consulted the NRL, NRC (rugby) and AFL, which they did. To me that shows no vision for the game’s growth and ignores, again, the game’s biggest attribute (its grass roots). I’d like to suggest that you email a copy of your article to the Chairman of the AAFC (Rabieh Krayem), who’ll have input into the FFA working group. His email address on their website, on the Contact tab.
Lionheart
Roar Rookie
thanks aubgraham, for that expanded example of the workings of your proposed 2nd Division. I like your proposal and indeed my excitement grew the more I read your article and understood it. There isn't much available on the draft paper put out by the FFA working group, but alarm bells rang when I read the little that is available. It sounds more like a modified A League, with A League Reserves, feeder clubs (an nrl term) and overlooked franchises, all centrally controlled by FFA of course, including merchandise. I thought the original draft paper for a 2nd Division put out by the AAFC was a reasonable start point, but it's been pegged back somewhat by the working group. Can I suggest that you forward a copy of your article to the AAFC, who will have input to the working group. You will find email and contact details on their website, including for their (quite approachable) chairman, Rabieh Krayem. Easiest way to find them is a web search, Australian Association of Football Clubs, go to their Contact Us tab. You can also access their original proposal on their website, under The Championship tab. As an aside, my local club's (Redlands United) published Vision on their website is to make the B League in 5 years, and A League in ten years. What a great aspiration for all their players and followers. They have a long way to go but surely this is the driver for the second division and our national football future, not more franchises and A League reserve sides.
Max power
Guest
You unrealistic optimism is endearing
Redondo
Roar Rookie
I'm lost by the sheltered workshop mentality that seeks to protect 'regional' football. If a city has 100,000 registered footballers and a 'region' has only 10,000 registered footballers why wouldn't the city deserve 10 times as many Div 2 spots as the region? The various geographical areas in a city are just as much 'regions' as any other 'region' in the country.
Midfielder
Roar Guru
Nem I enjoy your work as you think about solutions and within those solutions lets make it work. I was reading the other day a post on 442 from Markfrom Crodon I think and he made what I think is the logical observation and them applied this solution to his observation ... What impresses me is its beyond simple and so so so easy to understand and unbelievably fair. At clubs in Australia nominate if they want to be a professional club or an amateur club. Prior to this we determine what are the prerequisite's to be a professional club, and you can nominate to be Div 1 or Div 2 club. Basic rules are if you are a professional club, you must pay wages at a minimum level to players could be say 50K a year... you must have access to a say 3 K stadium in say Div 2, and a 12 K stadium in Div 1. Nominate a desired number of teams, either 32 or 36 ... equal numbers in each division. Can't be set up over night so after we 12 teams, the next two teams into the A-League will come from Div 2, so long as they can get access to a 12 k stadium... and so the next four teams so 13, 14, 15 & 16 come from Div 2 teams who won the league and have access to a 12 k stadium. Over say 4 to 8 years we have two divisions, of 16 teams, and when ready introduce P & R. The tricky bit for say 12 years out is how do we get new teams into Div 2 from Div 3... but thats way into the future..
Nemesis
Guest
Same that happens to every club in every league around the world where bloated bags of TV money don't subsidise the Top Division. Look around the world at the crowds in 2nd Divisions in countries that consistently develop quality footballers. Even look at England. Clubs went up and down without any drama. In fact the competition in England was more enjoyable with a huge variety of clubs moving into Div1 over the years. Only since the TV money entered England has the disparity between Div1 (EPL) and the rest of England's football ecosystem caused problems. The reason clubs struggle in 2nd Div is because they're betting huge amounts of money (taking on huge debt) to try to win promotion to get access to the rivers of cash in EPL. A good summary here Accrington Stanley owner Andy Holt horrified by skewed finances and he says clubs have been coerced into gambling https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-6831921/Accrington-owner-Andy-Holt-horrified-footballs-skewed-finances.html
Glorious
Roar Rookie
Gallop/Lowy failed to sell A-League rights to 7, 9 or 10 even after Gallop thought he had 9 in the bag. Under the current 2-year deal, 10 gets the Sat night game free from Fox but gives up advertising revenue.
Fadida
Roar Rookie
Overly simplistic. What happens to clubs with manageable wages who become relegated? Tiny tv money, small crowds.
Nemesis
Guest
No. The housing market & consumerism is build upon people buying products they cannot afford. The 2nd Division can be affordable and the 2nd Division can be unaffordable - depending on the model that is used. In A-League, we've chosen the unaffordable model and, big surprise, clubs are struggling financially. In NPL they use an affordable model & clubs are not struggling financially. If 2nd Division uses a model that forces clubs to pay wages above the market rate for that player then the model becomes unaffordable. This is happening in A-League. Central Coast Mariners pays players far in excess of what they're worth. How do we know this? Because CCM's squad of 23 players is paid the Salary Cap, same as Perth Glory's squad of players - removing Castro who is marquee. If 2nd Division uses a model where Head Office controls sponsorship & clubs can't use sponsors because of conflicts with Head Office sponsorship, it becomes unaffordable. If 2nd Division uses a model that where clubs play in big empty stadiums that charge huge hiring fees, it becomes unaffordable.
aubgraham
Roar Rookie
People seem to underestimate the difficulty that regional areas face when engaging at the national level. Clubs in Tasmania or Canberra aren't really set up for movement between local and national structures. However, clubs in these regions are supportive of efforts to create new clubs that "unite" these regions (the Canberra and Tasmania bids had strong local support). It's infeasible to suggest these clubs compete in the local leagues in order to gain promotion. In this system federations can tailor 2nd division nominations to reflect local circumstances. Victoria and Sydney footballing communities might like to see existing clubs given the opportunity to compete at the national level while smaller federations might prefer to create clubs to represent their federation.
Fadida
Roar Rookie
I'm not sure that it's so much taboo JB as a case of people thinking that because we want it, and because we need it , we should "just do it". How we can afford it no one has yet to explain. Funnily enough the housing market and consumerism is built on the same principles, "I can't afford it, but I want it, so I'll buy it"
Fadida
Roar Rookie
Buy it and then bury it?
aubgraham
Roar Rookie
In this system the quotas are allocation on sporting merit. Teams that finish third can't lose their place due to quota changes, they can only lose their place if their member federation decides to reallocate it in some way. The only team that loses its place due to quota reallocation is the team that finishes last. (See my response to Mr Football with further elaboration regarding the "third place relegated" example).
aubgraham
Roar Rookie
That I leave up to individual clubs. But the AAFC are advocating for a second division and they have 100+ members. They are talking about it being self-funded. If they think they can make it work then why not give it a go. This is just a demonstration of how to ensure that national participation is accessible to all regions in Australia.
aubgraham
Roar Rookie
Any system that incorporates both regional representation and promotion and relegation will by necessity be convoluted (feel free to expostulate a system with these features that isn't). Given the lack of detail about why it is too convoluted, should that be taken to mean that you didn't understand it? The example of a team finishing third and being relegated was a possibility, not a probability. Let me give some other examples from one extreme to the other. Everyone get relegated: All federations decide that the club quotas are filled in the order that they finished in their federation npl the previous year (this could mean that every year we could have 16 new clubs). Every lowest finishing member gets relegated : Federations decide that club quotas are filled by the order that teams finish in the 2nd division, unless they finish lowest relative to other member clubs, in which case they use performance in the previous year of their npl to determine club licences (this could still mean that, barring federation quota changes, every year we see the same clubs compete, but only if a club competed in both the 2nd div and their federation npl). One lowest finishing member gets relegated : Federations decide that club quotas are filled by the order that teams finish in the 2nd division, unless they finish in the last in the league, in which case they use performance in the previous year of their npl to determine club licences (this could still mean that, barring federation quota changes, every year we see the same clubs compete, but only if a club competed in both the 2nd div and their federation npl). No one gets relegated: Federations decide that club quotas are filled by the order that teams finish in the 2nd division. (this could mean that, barring federation quota changes, every year we see the same clubs compete). The extreme situation are unlikely as each federation establishes its own system for promotion/relegation. Furthermore, this system is not predicated on proomotion and relegation with A-League. In fact, this is where I will give the AAFC props if they do indeed institute a system of promotion and relegation with the lower tier. As for criteria, I should hope they do indeed institute appropriate criteria for admission. Most importantly an appropriately sized bond that ensures teams can play out the season if they run into financial trouble.
Nick Symonds
Guest
"Ten has no direct partnership with the A-League or FFA despite televising one game a week. Its broadcast of the competition relates to a deal with Fox Sports, whereby the pay TV company purchased the Saturday night timeslot from Ten to broadcast its own coverage of the A-League. Under that arrangement which expires at the end of this season, it's understood Fox Sports retains all advertising revenue from the A-League coverage on Ten." - Is it any wonder that the FTA networks weren't keen on bidding for the broadcasting rights when "Fox Sports retains all advertising revenue from the A-League coverage"?
Nick Symonds
Guest
"How can you quarantine some clubs from the harsh realities of promotion ad relegation without undermining the legitimacy of the league." - Is a quota system merit based? As you said, "if NSW has three teams in the second division, they could relegate the bottom-placed team (even if that team finished third) and promote a different federation member club." You're solution to an unsporting quarantine system is to replace it with with an unsporting quota system which also seems flawed. If a third placed team can be relegated then you may as well make it possible to relegate the second placed team as well. In the words of Ricky Bobby - "If you ain't first, you're last".