Is Johnathan Thurston really better than Andrew Johns?

I don't think Morgan was the best for the Cowboys in the 2015 Grand Final. Is try assist in the final seconds was brilliant but aside from that he was well covered by the Broncos defence, and try as he might he struggled to have any influence. The Cowboys candidates for best afield to my mind are Jake Granville with 2 try assists and 36 tackles, and Jason Taumalolo with 177 run metres (70 post contact) and 30 tackles. Milford, like you said was a strong candidate, but one thing that probably worked against him was letting Morgan get outside him in the final seconds. One other point, I think Thurston is often maligned for how scrappy it was in that final play but I think his tactics for the play was sound. The play the ball happened in the middle of the field and demanded the ball very wide to the left of the ruck, a pass that Granville can'tmake on the full. By doing that he's looking catch the defence out by out-numbering them or making them overcommit. They do that latter as 10 Broncos defenders end up on that side of the field. This then gives Morgan the perfect opportunity with the space to use his speed and strength. It's not pretty but it was a well reasoned play.

Fair enough and we will never know. But the Broncs dominated their comp in 97, while Newcastle did not. Of course the relative strengths are debatable

Right...nice effort. Other than dominating the BRL he did win the Dally M 5/8th of the year in 88.

BTW, Wally only dominated a couple weeks of the year. He never dominated week in week out like Johns or Thurston. Would he have been able to do it consistently? We will never really know will we.

Joey did play in the last 20 years? He played half his career in it so BB this isn't a valid argument. Over the last 20 years, forwards like Civoniceva, Klemmer, Burgess, Gallen & Hindmarsh have got bigger, faster & fitter. The backs like Hodges, Ingliss, Hayne, Morris & Lyons have become more physical so I don't believe the game has become an easier game to keep longevity for any player let alone a star playing at about 87kgs.

Your last sentence sums up the difference perfectly.

Choppy Close on the wing in origin a couple of times Rob I recon he played with instinct as well....ffs. I think our backs out weighed our forwards that year.

But he wouldn't have been as fast or agile. Matty just needed to be better under the high ball and sometimes positioning in the in goal.

Terry Lamb (freak), Steve Menzies and Lockyer etc. were all involved in Rugby League before it turned fully professional and are exceptions to the rule. Players had full time jobs, now teams have full time nutritionists, Physios, doctors, psychologists and analysts. As a result there have been a lot more 300 game players in the last 20 years than in the 90 years before that. Before that a serious injury would derail a player’s career and they’d be back on the tools, not getting rushed into surgery and Physio to be back on the field ASAP.

Not sure most players make 300 when Joey played? Lockyer played 355 in the same era. Lamb 350, Kimorley307, Cliff Lyons 333. Jason Taylor, Hasler, Toovey, Langer and plenty of others played more than Joey. Johns dominance was not very long compared to many of his contemporaries. Long gevity is usually a mark of an exceptional player. Joey’s career is not special in this department and many very talented players succumb to injury through their careers.

One thing to consider... Johns and even guys like Freddie...played against an unlimited interchange from 1996 to 2001... often teams would have a non stop rotation of fresh players who sole job was to defend or run at these marquee players. Some would be replaced every ten minutes or less!!! This 5 year period was when the players were in their prime in relation to age and their careers. Sometimes people would say they went missing, but really they were marked out of the game, but more often than not they were still carving it up. I'm not sure JTs frame could handle the load Joey etc had to. for 5 years of his career. 2001 the interchange went to 12 then 10 in 2008.... This is a massive consideration and why I see Joey and Freddie being such great players compared to other generations and at least worthy of consideration when looking at generations v generations etc.

Advances in sports science? They aren't players from different generations. Terry Lamb was from a former generation, he started his career in 1980 & played 350 games, so how does that stack up? Yes defence is obviously very important when you are judging players. Thurston defended more in the centres than closer in like Joey did but how many tries did JT save leaving his man & rushing up & in to trap someone with the ball when there was an overlap looming. Or running back 60-70 metres from the over side of the field & tackling a certain try scorer metres from the try line. Joey did have that long distance pace like JT did. Oh well, next we will all start arguing over who was beautiful, Grace Kelly or Marilyn Monroe. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder & we better off just leaving it at that.

Certainly gives weight but how often are teams good enough to win two years in a row? I can certainly think of teams in recent history who came close one year and won the premiership the following year.

Bryce, as I said it is a great pub debate. You clearly are a Joey fan with some selective hand-picked points and a JT fan could write a similar pitch for him. There is no right or wrong, just be grateful they both gave us the delight to witness live.

Where are the defensive stats? Joey was a rock in defence, hence him being able to play origin at hooker. He could pick up forwards and dump them one on one. Thurston did his best to get his body in front and slow them down until the back up arrived. He was good at scrambling back to make leg tackles but Joey wouldn’t have let them break the line. Joey dominated origin (without 2-3 future immortals in his team) and his two grand final wins and thoroughly deserved his Churchill medal. Thurston wasn’t even the best player on his team when the Cowboys won and he got the Churchill. Milford for the Broncos was the best player on the park and Morgan was the best for the Cowboys. Morgan created the match levelling try out of a desperate nothing pass from Thurston who then missed the conversion to win it. If Hunt hadn’t dropped the kickoff the Broncos probably would have had first shot at field goal. I also think Thurston’s longevity comes down to the advances in sports science, training and recovery. Not many players made it to 300 games when Joey retired due to injury after 249 games. The Cowboys made a grand final without Thurston, the Knights we’re completely hopeless without Joey. Joey was more influential than Thurston to his teams success.

:) that is just the way it was back then mate

Rellum, You need to lay down and have a rest mate.

Adrian, This has been a great pub banter, (that is when we can get in). One thing is certain, certainly based on my Rating Value Model and hours of video analysis and analysing their analytics - Joey and JT are the two best and most influential players I have studied. I long held the view that Joey was #1, then JT gave me my greatest thrill in the game by kicking that winning field goal to defeat the Broncos in the Golden Point Grand Final and then with one arm hanging limp he cased Laurie Daley's sacking by kicking the winning goal from the sideline. He was just so tenacious and never gave up. I think in the end, he wore Joey down in a photo, but what a privilege to be able to see them both play. There is no one at their level playing today, or should I say May 28.

Two absolute superstars. They both are that good that if I was picking my greatest ever team, I couldn't leave either of them out. One would have to come off the bench with the 14 on his back. As a doggies man I still rue the day we let Thurston get away over Brent Sherwin but I understand we had salary cap issues at the time. Both very instinctive players who could win a game off their own backs when they were playing against better teams. How do you separate them? Only one way, longevity. If I was a club CEO with a crystal ball back in 1995, I would choose Thurston purely because of the fact that I was going to get another 4-5 seasons out of him. That my friends isn't an opinion, that is an actual fact!

So you are saying Terry Lamb, Brett Kenny, Bob Fulton never played on instinct? Sorry but the game of League didn't start in 1997.