Remember that average 70s American sitcom? The eight kids were tough for Dick van Patten to handle, like herding cats. Refereeing a rugby scrum is more than twice as hard.
Some scrums are silly-looking, such as three-a-side in sevens, though five-a-side scrums as in Brisbane tens are okay-ish.
League scrums are very silly, though with league speeding up, the need for that rest is all the more pressing.
Maybe now is the time for rugby league to complete the split from that other game, removing the penultimate illusion of a contest for possession, just leaving the endangered ‘one-on-one strip’.
Perhaps silliest of all is the union scrum, the unedifying sight of a code eating itself to please a crusty few.
(Photo by Cameron Spencer/Getty Images)
Were scrums always that bad? I forget. At the top level these days there is so much weight, power, guile and skew that it’s a wonder any get completed. The poor and often ignorant ref has to guess which prop faceplanted first or – heaven forbid – allowed an elbow to rest on the turf.
As an aside, I don’t see why losing a bind should be a penalty. So your grip wasn’t strong enough, or your feet were too far back – seems to me that these are human frailties, not wanton law-breaking like being offside or boring in.
Is there a solution that will work? Maybe arrows on the backs of jerseys? Handles sewn into props jerseys?
There is a solution that has little chance of getting up.
Scrums and maybe even lineouts should be six-a-side. Seriously. Of course it won’t happen.
Consider compulsory voting. There are arguments both ways. Some might say elections should be decided by those who want to vote, that the votes of those who don’t want to be there should not decide an election.
Nothing will change because that would require bipartisan support. Rightly or wrongly, the consensus here is that optional voting would favour the coalition, so the Labor party would block it. Likewise, the Republican Christian right in America is good at mobilising its troops, so they won’t ever accept a switch to compulsory.
Perhaps six-a-side scrums is just a daft idea. It won’t happen because it won’t get multi-party support. There would be winners and losers. ‘Typical Aussie wants to shield their weak scrum from the tough stuff’. Followed by some comment about rugby league.
Talk about elephants in rooms. That’s the crux of the problem. Sixteen elephants in a confined space are way too many and endanger the future of the game.
When I was playing, rugby was promoted as a game for all shapes and sizes. The small kid played halfback if he had skill or as hooker if he didn’t. The fat props did nothing much beyond scrummaging. The fit guys were breakaways. The two who could jump highest became the second rowers, the skinny fast kids with clean gear were wingers. How things have changed.
Where is this heading? At the elite level rugby has become a game for 23 big, strong athletic men. There is simply too much weight and craft for a modern scrum to hold up. Like dropping a horse from a building compared to dropping a cat, it’s bound to get messy.
The only way to resolve this is to lose the flankers from scrums – or maybe make them bind 3-2-3, as in the very old days. Tightheads get pounded by a combination of hooker, loosehead and his flanker. ‘Scrum-straight Jo’ was able to make a beeline for the centre of the scrum partly because his flanker was headed for the same spot.
Too much force and too much skew.
Would we be left with league scrums? Not at all. Rugby tens is one variant too many, but there is still room for serious scrumming, particularly when you add a No. 6.
Would this mean the end of the colossus at tighthead? No, though we are already seeing more ball-playing props these days. Six on six would still be a good contest. A big, well-drilled sixpack will still be able to monster.
To be honest, I feel the same about lineouts. There should be a maximum of six on six for them as well to avoid the barroom brawl. Yes, that would also limit the Brumbies’ rolling try. Tant pis. (“He must be a precious Tahs supporter.”)
The downside is fewer set-piece backline moves with seven on seven.
Maybe six on six is just a bad idea but, seriously, something needs to be done before it’s too late.
BeastieBoy
Roar Rookie
the 3 2 3 scrum formation is interesting.. I would like to see it at work in some full blown matches..why not test it out.. The NFL got our original scrummed separated out the Packs and put them in 2 lines against each other and they called it a Scrimmage. It took away any push on the ball and any risk of collapse. So another choice is we just ban the push, but require the side in possession say 5 seconds to use it.
Just Nuisance
Roar Rookie
Scrums have always been a bit messy Mark.. I've followed this game for 50 years and played it too. It's an accepted thing.. Only way to stop it is to remove them as a contest.. Other sports have their messy bits too. Try explaining to a non cricketing person how a 5 day Test match can end in a draw or how a football World Cup can be decided on a penalty shootout.. Sounds daft..
Mark
Guest
No it didnt The game turned into League with constant up and unders There was less running of the ball Also - the ELVS allowed the attacking team to take a free kick rather than a scrum - which is almost always what happened (which is why there were less scrums and less scrum resets) The ELV's where a stupid idea from people who had no clue what Rugby was about
Mark
Guest
Who says they are a disaster? Whats wrong with them? They are a massive power struggle of strength and technique Why the insistence that a collapsed scrum is something that detracts so much from the game?
Mark
Guest
Agree 100% I would even roll back some of the annoying changes Why - if a team has a dominant scrum do they need to keep all 8 in the scrum? Its not that teams fault the opposition can't scrummage for toffee (btw - this was introduced to counteract the AB's at the time who were destroying everyone and could leave Jones and Brooke off the scrum in midfield) Why do I have to come through the gate - I am onside - what a stupid rule - surely the game is about contest for possession? and by insisting on this - you ensure less contest and a more congested midfield The only change I would add would be - we can't ruck now - so why not just make - if you're onside and on your feet you can try and pick the ball up - again - more contest for possession and a less congested midfield
Agreed Rob, in my view flankers are the most versatile players on the rugby pitch.
Red Rob
Roar Rookie
Corne I know it’s a light hearted comment but I think plenty of flankers these days would be at home in the midfield. Hooper and Samu obviously. Often Thor plays outside first receiver in attack.
I can think of one player that would revel as an extra backline player, Hooper :silly:
Red Rob
Roar Rookie
I’m not worried about it advocating anything. As I made very clear, I’m just curious about the flankers’ effect on a scrum.
Yeah, you see you are viewing scrums from the other end of the spectrum, and thus not being objective either. Scrums are not a quick restart, anyone who believes that is ill informed. Scrums are a contest, thus any contestable part of rugby union becomes an opportunity to stretch the laws to suit your team. Same as everyone moaned about Richie McCaw at the breakdown, people complain about the scrum. We have had this discussion before, you believe scrums shouldn't be about penalties, and to a certain degree I will agree, scrums are though about physical dominance, technique and prevention good ball to the opposition. Sure remove penalties if the majority believes it is too easy to score points from scrums, go to free kicks only. Just consider if a pack that is dominated and use illegal tactics to circumvent or negate that dominance they need to be punished accordingly. Otherwise they will just continue to infringe and remove a big part of the benefit a dominant team deserves. However having said that, good luck with getting the Six Nations teams Unions consent to such a law change.
I am talking under correction, but I am quite sure during the elv’s scrum infringements were only penalisable by free kick? Worked well then.
In brief
Guest
Scrums are not fine they are a failure- but can be fixed very quickly. I would caution against group think and hubris- just saying rugby is popular doesn’t mean much. Fundamentally teams should not be scrummaging for penalties- it is completely against the spirit of rugby. According to the laws a scrum is a quick restart to play following a minor indiscretion. That is not the reality today - they are slow, they stop play rather than restart play and are not the attacking weapon they should be..
In brief
Guest
I’m not sure to be honest- I know Diamond made some comments about scrums last week but I haven’t heard from Moore for a while - I think he probably supported some of the latest adjustments (as I did hoping they would work) and so isn’t being as critical of late
Poco Loco
Roar Rookie
Taking the WFs out of the scrum would mean there would be 2 extra in the defensive line which will make it harder for the attack to penertrate. Is this desirable? If you are woried about them destabilising the scrum then pack 323.
Poco Loco
Roar Rookie
Bobby, you are wrong. I was a hooker in times when hookers hooked and you got raked if you lay in the way in mauls. I also occasionally played prop too so am quite aware of the dark arts, the power plays, boring in, the tricks to unsettle the opposition. However that does not mean that I need to agree with your sentiments. The scrum play was not originally about the dark arts and power. That only developed in the north because it was a way to milk penalities and easier than scoring tries. The awarding free kicks instead of penalties does not do away with the scrum contest. It just limits the infrinagement award to a free kick and stops the continual reseting of scrums. Winning the scrum ball and using it will bring in more attacking rugby and more time of ball in play.
Charging Rhino
Roar Guru
Mate, rugby has never been so big and so popular around the world. The rules are fine. Scrums are fine. However, rugby in Australian at the professional level to engage the mass population is struggling. But the reality is that’s not world rugby’s fault, or their problem to fix, it’s Australia’s. We need to fix it. You can’t change the rules of a global sport, that is clearly on a massive upward trajectory, simply to please the few in Australia, who may or may not attract new fans to the sport even if rule changes were introduced. I live here in Queensland. I love it. But it’s a very small drop in the ocean in comparison to the global rugby market. And having lived in the UK, South Africa, and travelled throughout France and Europe including Ireland, and knowing the level of interest from both the general populations, media and number of players and rugby clubs etc in those places, it actually never ceases to amaze me just how well Australian rugby performs at the international level, based on a comparison of the interest levels here in Australia. Honestly, it’s impressive how well Australian teams perform, when the media and mass population interest etc lies with the AFL and NRL, and the limited with the player numbers (in comparison to other countries like SA, England, France etc). In New Zealand and Wales, pretty much 80% follow rugby in some way or another, you can’t escape it, so even though the actual player numbers aren’t massive, it’s been whittled down to the real quality playing the game. Rugby in Australia is unique and faces challenges that are different to all the other major rugby nations: massive competition from a very similar rugby code (NRL), plus the culture imbedded in a national sport (AFL) for many down south. Whilst the UK, France and SA have soccer/football, there’s nothing else that really competes with rugby union. Rugby in South Africa, New Zealand, Wales, heck even in parts of Ireland, England and France, is like what AFL is in Victoria. Mass and total coverage and interest for the sport.
mzilikazi
Roar Pro
Just bit of scrum conservation work !
mzilikazi
Roar Pro
Hadda say somthin !
Rhys
Roar Rookie
I think a big problem too is the refereeing and that's something which sadly pervades all aspects of rugby, especially at the international level. I think in the instances where the ball is coming out and the ref blows it up cruels the game. Some more leniency would be better. Focussing on rucks/offside infringements rather than pedantic calls around scrums would open the game without tinkering with any rules.
Ulrich
Roar Rookie
I don't have an issue with the scrum. It's actually one of my favourite parts of the game. I recall England winning a huge scrum penalty in the RWC final against SA and then from there neither team dominated. Up to that point, it had been all green and when I rewatch I take as much joy from the scrums as from the tries at the end.