After his fourth championship win, LeBron James told the media “I want my damn respect too”.
They were LeBron James’ last words in his on-floor speech after winning this year’s NBA championship. He clarified that he was referring to people who doubt his success.
It might partly be aimed at the MVP voting panel he was cranky with, who only gave him 16 out of 101 possible first place votes, or equally, commentators who continuously claim he is not, and will never be, the GOAT.
Michael Jordan versus LeBron for the GOAT has been discussed so many times, but it is worth a brief revisit now that LeBron has won his fourth title.
My contention is that MJ is currently clearly the GOAT, but I do not subscribe to the view that LeBron cannot supplant MJ – it depends on his success over the remaining years of his career. He has some gaps to make up in titles won and/or individual awards to contend for GOAT status.
I believe LeBron’s fourth championship moves him from third to second place all-time, above Kareem Abdul-Jabbar – he is a very, very special NBA player.
The main reason I wrote this article, however, is that I am surprised that there has even been a heated debate up until now about which of LeBron or MJ is the GOAT (some would argue that the whole topic is unnecessary, but it is fun!), especially before LeBron won his fourth championship.
LeBron James (Steve Dykes/Getty Images)
A lot of arguments are made about which era has been more difficult to play in, who had greater teammate s to support them, who played stronger teams in the finals or on the way to the finals, etc, but those arguments often appear circular, easily rebutted, and are often just used to support a particular point of view.
It also sometimes appears that commentators mounting their argument for the GOAT are heavily swayed by the era they most closely associate with.
On First Take (US ‘talking heads’ sports show), the 53-year-old Stephen A Smith mounts the ‘LeBron will never be as good as MJ theory’, whereas the 35-year-old Kendrick Perkins (ex-NBA player of LeBron’s era and same age as LeBron) espouses LeBron as GOAT without question.
When it comes to GOAT in the NBA (or really many team sports), I contend that there are a few key metrics of success (not in any particular order): a) individual stats; b) advanced stats; c) individual awards; and d) team success.
The comparison between LeBron and MJ has been completed in much more detail, many times before, but I will summarise the key metrics below.
Summary
MJ has had superior Team Success and Individual Awards, and LeBron probably just shades MJ in Individual Stats (with Advanced Stats neither ‘here nor there’).
On that basis, I am interested, using relatively objective measures, if someone can explain to me, at least currently, how you could possibly consider LeBron the GOAT instead of MJ?
Individual stats (per game, regular season)
LeBron – 27.1 points, 7.4 rebounds, 7.4 assists, 1.6 steals, 0.8 blocks, 3.5 turnovers, 50.4 per cent field goals, 34.4 per cent three pointers, 73.4 per cent free throws, 38.3 minutes
MJ – 30.1 points, 6.2 rebounds, 5.3 assists, 2.3 steals, 0.8 blocks, 2.7 turnovers, 49.7 per cent field goals, 32.7 per cent three pointers, 83.5 per cent free throws
Verdict: Many would argue that LeBron’s individual stats are superior, but it is very close – LeBron appears to just shade MJ.
I will keep the article simple and will not list playoff stats, but LeBron also appears to just shade MJ in that regard as well. LeBron clearly also has MJ covered in cumulative stats, having played a few extra seasons.
Advanced stats (regular season)
Player Efficiency Rating – MJ (27.9); LeBron (27.5)
Box Plus/Minus – MJ (9.2); LeBron (8.9)
Value over replacement player – MJ (116.1); LeBron (133.7) [appears to have cumulative influences]
Win Shares – MJ (214); LeBron (236.4) [this appears to be a cumulative stat, as Win Shares per 48 minutes puts MJ ahead of LeBron]
Verdict: I only have a basic understanding of these stats and appreciate there are pros and cons (and probably other relevant advanced stats), so if anyone wants to educate me on any interpretative errors, please do!
In simple terms, LeBron and MJ appear to be very close on PER and Box +/-, and not surprisingly, LeBron is ahead on advanced stats influenced by cumulative performance. The verdict probably depends on your view of the merits of cumulative performance.
Individual awards
MVPs – 5 (MJ) to 4 (LeBron) [yes, this is a peculiar award, but it ‘is what it is’ – from memory, both MJ and LeBron missed out on the award in seasons they should have won it]
(Photo by Christian Petersen/Getty Images)
Finals MVPs – 6 (MJ) to 4 (LeBron)
All NBA selection – 16 (LeBron) to 11 (MJ) [LeBron has played for 17 seasons; while MJ played for 15 seasons, in effect, it was really only 13 seasons, as in two seasons, he only played seven and 17 games respectively – there’s also the question of how to judge him missing All NBA selection in the two return seasons with the Wizards in his early 40s, three years after he ‘retired’).
All NBA Defensive Team – 9 (MJ) to 6 (LeBron) [plus MJ had 1 Defensive player of the year]
I am not going to complicate things by listing other awards such as MVP all-star games, scoring titles etc.
Verdict: MJ has more MVPs, Finals MVPs; and All NBA Defensive Team. LeBron has more All NBA selections (although this is less clear-cut than it first appears).
It looks like a clear win to MJ.
Team success
MJ has six NBA championships, LeBron has four championships.
MJ has two three-peats with one team; LeBron has four individual championships with three teams [there are multiple lenses this can be viewed through, but I think it is hard to argue against the merit of two three-peats].
LeBron has been to the finals ten times in 17 years; MJ has been to the finals six times in 13 years (ignoring his Wizards’ years).
Verdict: A clear win to MJ – championships are the key metric of team success (although as a Pies’ supporter, I wish making the Final counted more!)
Kane
Roar Guru
Between the years of 1988 and 1995, the NBA expanded. Six teams were added; Hornets (88), Heat (88), Magic (89), Timberwolves (89), Raptors (95), and Grizzlies (95). Michael played in a league that was watered down throughout his career. As the new expansion teams finally got to the playoffs (and many didn't stay long), new teams continued to flood the league. At any given time in his career after 1988, there were at least three teams that had five or less years of experience. The other side of that argument is that LeBron played in a weaker conference.
Bell31
Roar Rookie
Thanks Kane - interesting analysis. I see these kind of stats as 'tie-breaker' stats - ie, all else being equal, then stats like these would possibly swing the argument towards LeBron - however, as of right now, 'all is not equal' in the GOAT argument. If, however, I was selecting a team from scratch and I could choose any player who has ever played, I'd actually choose LeBron, not b/c I rate him over MJ, but just that there's a greater chance that he'll gell with the other players I'd choose, as he's the more team-oriented of the two!
Bell31
Roar Rookie
Have a look at the stats I quote above – Le Bron definitely impacts as the better all-around basketball player by the ‘eye test’, but when you look at the stats, it’s really not that definitive – his individual stats are better than MJs, but only just – and the advanced stats say it’s basically hard to separate them in that regard. I find it hard to fairly judge the ‘who played with better teammates’ argument and ‘MJ played in the weaker league’. I assume you mean ‘MJ rarely beat some of his greatest opponents’ – again, hard to argue this point, as the counter-argument is that his supporting cast (Pippen, Grant) didn’t really come into their own until the Bulls eventually beat the Pistons and Lakers.
Kane
Roar Guru
Jordans biggest flaw was that he didn't get better in close out/elimination games in fact he got worse. I mean if you look at close out games he shoots 9% worse from the field, averages 1.4 less rebounds, 2.1 less assists, 0.8 less steals, 0.6 less blocks for 0.3 less points. Take a look at elimination games back to the wall, if you lose you go home. You'd think this is when Air Jordan would rise to the occasion right? Wrong, although he performs better than he does in close out games. When facing elimination, Jordan shoots 1.6% worse at 48.1%, LeBron shoots 3.5% better at 53.9%. Jordan averages 1.7 more rebounds at 7.9, LeBron averages 5.6 more at 13. Jordan averages 0.4 less assists at 7, LeBron averages 1.6 more at 9. Jordan averages 0.7 less steals at 1.6, LeBron averages 0.8 more at 2.4. Jordan averages 0.5 more blocks at 1.3, LeBron averages 1.0 more at 1.8. Jordan averages 1.5 more turnovers at 4.2, LeBron averages 1.3 less at 2.2. Jordan averages 2.7 more points at 32.8, LeBron averages 9.2 more at 36.4. Jordan averages less than 42% win rate from 12 games, LeBron averages more than 58% from twice as many games. The statistics show one thing clearly, LeBron steps up in the clutch far more strongly than Jordan did. When facing a chance to eliminate an opponent, Jordan was 30-10, or won 75% of the time. Of the eight main statistical categories, his numbers dropped in each except for free throw percentage and turnovers. He shot 9% worse, had 1.4 fewer rebounds, 2.1 fewer assists, .8 fewer steals, and .6 fewer blocks. His only impressive improvement was having .8 fewer turnovers in such games. His scoring efficiency, assists and rebounds, and overall defense all lacked in games where he could put opponents away. When James is facing elimination he completely changes. Of the eight main statistical categories, he improves in seven. His only downside is his free throw percentage drops 7.4% (Jordan 5.7%) when facing elimination. LeBron plays at a completely different level when facing elimination. He improves in his on-court efficiency in every way imaginable; scoring, rebounding, getting others involved, he vastly improves defensively, and he turns the ball over less. So who would you want to play for you life?
Kane
Roar Guru
LeBron James is statistically a better player when it comes to all-around basketball. However, Michael Jordan was a much better scorer. He won more on the biggest stage, but failed often in the playoffs and rarely beat some of his greatest opponents. James played with better teammates than Jordan did. MJ also played in a much weaker league.
Kane
Roar Guru
Where do you draw the line when looking at who was better, their prime? Their best year? Their best playoff series? Their best playoff game? He absolutely should be judged on the year he came back, in the playoffs he averaged more points per game than in half of his championship winning years, but because he didn't win it doesn't count? Maybe the time off benefited his career as he couldn't sustain that level? Who knows.
Bell31
Roar Rookie
Great reply Steele. I agree that it’s probably hard to argue that LeBron is above MJ right now, although I don’t think it’s impossible (although unlikely) that he reaches MJ depending on his success in latter years of his career. I feel like you’re a bit tough on LeBron though, as his individual stats are just better than MJ’s and the advanced stats are close too. Also, whilst MJ’s 6 / 6 finals is amazing, it’s not the whole story, as he took about 8 years to reach a final series (and got knocked out by the Pistons 3 times in a row if I recall correctly). Interesting comments re Bird’s career – I wasn’t following the NBA then, but I have Magic at 4th all-time and Bird as 8th all time (with Wilt, Russell and Kobe in between them) – it’s possible career stats and individual / team achievements don’t quite do justice to Bird’s brilliance.
Bell31
Roar Rookie
Like you, I don't really buy into the Le Bron doesn't have a killer instinct view - I can't recall where I was reading it, but Le Bron's stats are really good in close-out series games for instance. However, I'm not sure what you mean by MJ having his Wizards' series removed from his CV --- they're part of his career individual stats and overall career. I probably just cut him a bit of slack not making the All-NBA team at 41, 3 years post retirement! I do think it's pretty reasonable not to really count the year he returned from baseball in terms of his legacy - he only played 17 / 82 games. I agree though that he should be judged on his overall career - it's just that those 6 years of championships are incredible.
Steele
Guest
The only thing I’ll say about that article, is that the Bulls couldn’t help it it if they were generally favourites going into those finals. It’s like Jordan gets punished for being so good! Of course they were favourites, the goat was playing for them and he had another all star with him in Pippen. The Lakers are made to look like they over achieved. Well maybe Shaq was a little lazy during the regular season! I can’t remember thinking they wouldn’t win any of those five rings. And were Miami really the underdogs against OKC?!
Steele
Guest
A huge pity we didn’t see the L.A teams go at it, but I’ve gotta say Lebron was due for a ‘lucky yr’. He was pretty stiff the year Love and Kyrie went down and then when KD joined the Warriors it just wasn’t even interesting.
Steele
Guest
This is absolutely correct. Once Pippen actually matured and became a pro, well MJ never lost. In reality the Bulls basically won every yr Pippen was in his prime. The baseball comeback half season being left out for obvious reasons.
Steele
Guest
Well yeah, you have to look at prime years when arguing who is actually better at basketball don’t you? Longevity can give you a great career resume but not an entitlement to the best player. What did you expect from him when he came back from baseball mid season? He lost to a great Orlando, but if you think he doesn’t get a pass on that one you’ve gotta be bias. It just adds to his legend that he could still be so good coming from another sport without the practice. He was 38 after three years out at the Wizards! It doesn’t get removed, nor is it an argument against him. If it is, explain how?
Steele
Guest
My opinion is that it ain’t all that close and kind of grinds my gears that folks think Lebron is better. Usually it’s the 40 yrs and under that push his case. Lebron is an unbelievable player and will have an incredible resume when he is done, his longevity and durability combined with his talent is a hell of a combination. But as many trophies as he picks up, it doesn’t change the fact that there are some flaws in his game and failures along the way. Although he lost six finals, four of those are completely understandable. However, there were two in Miami where he just wasn’t good enough when really he had the better roster. He doesn’t have a pull up jumper and gets most of his points driving to the paint and his FT percentage is ordinary. MJ was better offensively and defensively with 30ppg with 10 scoring titles and a dpoy award thrown in. If your better in those two categories I don’t know what else the argument is. He also never lost a finals, and never really lost anything where he was the favourite going in. Then I like to look at prime years, something I place a lot of value on. Jordan only really had a ten yr window of greatness, mainly due to his own choice. His debut yr(rookie of year) was followed by a year of injury. After that it gets compelling. Minus the baseball yrs you have ten seasons of basketball before his second retirement. In those yrs he has five MVPs three second placings and two thirds and then of course the six titles. That’s hard to top. The reality is, it is a more compelling argument as to who is in second place in the Goat debate. I think Lebron may have just clinched it, but gee it’s close. One guy who seemingly always gets dropped down the list too far is Larry Bird. This guys first ten years are insane. He came fourth in his debut yr, improving his teams win tally by 32. Then for the next nine seasons he wins three MVPs, five second placings and a third place. After that injuries set in and it was all over. For that entire period nobody was greater, including magic. Magic gets the nod now for many, but nobody said he was better when those two were in their primes. And who do you want shooting the ball when the games on the line out of Lebron and Bird? Lebron would prefer to pass half the time when the pressure’s on. Bird was crazy efficient and would be unbelievable in this era. His stats are nuts as well. Maybe the best there’s been. KD is the closest thing we have to him today, but not nearly as good just yet. Jordan’s only tiny flaw is his three point percentage, yet in today’s game i am convinced he would have got it up a little higher than the %33. The game has changed during Lebron’s career to the point you can see his own improvement in hitting the three. It just wasn’t highly important during MJs time.
Kane
Roar Guru
If Jordan had the Killer Instinct and LeBron didn't then you'd suspect the stats would show that LeBron's stats get worse in closeout and elimination games while Jordans would get better except that isn't the case. The truth is the exact opposite, Jordan's stats regress and LeBron seems to grow another leg. What frustrates me is that Jordon seems to be allowed to remove his seasons with the Wizards and the first year back from baseball. It's just picking and choosing his best years to suit a narrative. It's almost like he only played 6 years in the league and he's not allowed to be judged on his zero seasons above 500 without Pippen and his multiple seasons getting swept in the first round.
At work
Roar Rookie
I don't really devalue players for winning a championship out of creating super teams (compared to organic team building), they still need to gel and work hard to get the ring. Although one I will point out is when Durant joined GSW, joining the best team in the league (as a top 3 player) was an easy way to get a ring.
At work
Roar Rookie
I've always liked Lebron, and he has played out of his skin to get some of his average teams up to a beat better teams. But what he doesn't have compared to Jordan is the killer instinct. Jordan didn't care what his team mates thought of him, he knew he was no.1 and the leader and would do anything to win. I think Lebron is more a nice guy, which is fine, but not as ruthless as MJ.
Ad-O
Guest
Worse because of the removal of physical confrontation from the game and the prevalence of small ball. Its a matter of taste in the end.
Bell31
Roar Rookie
I recall reading that article, although correct me if I'm wrong, I think it also argued for MJ as the GOAT based on playoff context. Whilst there are always differences between eras, which makes across-era GOAT discussions more challenging, in this particular comparison, there's considerable merit in using objective criteria across the 4 categories I've listed to make a GOAT comparison, despite other variables. Also, the eras are not really that far apart, albeit there are some differences in how the game was/is played. However, it sounds like you're not much of an 'all-time' list kind of fan (I have Kareen at 3, Wilt at 5, and none of those others in my top 10 :)
Samuel Laffy
Roar Guru
As you outline, there's too many variables that are different (and more that can't actually be compared due to changes in defensive rules between MJ and LBJ) for a comparison to be worthy. Additionally, the quality of opponents in NBA Finals play-offs can also vastly swing someone's opinions (The Ringer had a GREAT article exploring this concept: https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/5/11/21254188/title-expectations-michael-jordan-lebron-james) I think we should just appreciate how good LBJ is, remember how good MJ was (and while I'm at it how good Kareem was, and how good Wilt was, and how good Olajuwon/Robinson/Ewing/Barkley/Malone/Stockton were, and how good Doncic/Giannis etc. are and enjoy good players whenever we get the chance to see them!)
peterj
Roar Rookie
Great article. I think emotion tends to take over in this debate, similar to the Messi V Rondaldo debate in football. FWIW MJ is the clear GOAT for me but LeBron is an absolute freak and someone who is an undeniable talent but MJ's defensive record is what sets him apart. Both brilliant players and I'm thankful I got/get to watch both of them.