14-man Ireland rout England in Six Nations

You've expanded into the broader areas ozinsa. And they're similarly difficult to explain. Leadership is clearly an issue and has been manifest for some time. That's on field from the broader inability to react to their own failing tactics or the opposition's winning ones, through to the minutia failure to address mounting penalty counts. It's also in the coaches box with some monumental failures in team prep at crucial times, through to basic squad development. That last point may seem harsh given Jones has a record run of successive victories, an impressive Australian tour whitewash, some significant and impressive performances, a string of rotten injury woes and a RWC final appearance under his belt. But there have been massive and costly inconsistencies which we've all witnessed. Jones' domestic record, the starting point for a world tilt, has also been well below par. England's single grand slam were his first 5 games in charge, using Lancaster's team. He never followed that up but watched both Ireland and Wales complete one, and had two fifth place finishes to his name. That would have cost any previous England coach their job. I think almost every England fan's frustration is a mounting sense a golden generation has been wasted. Mine extends to a feeling that we're still looking at the foundations rather than the castle that should be being built.

Love how Curry has developed as a player and constantly reminded how his twin Ben was generally considered the better youth player. Sliding doors. And agree, he could be a Warburton, but they're big shoes. National captaincy at 22 worked for Warbs, not so much for Hooper, who was also 22. Tom is ......22. I wonder which door he'd walk through if offered it? Also agree on Faz and any danger of muting him, or any benefit from doing so. Reminded me of the YouTube footage as part of a Paul O'Connell homage. 30 seconds in, case in point re Owen. Also loved the piece to Mike Phillips, the Lions 9 that day at 1min 10. And loved that in both pieces you've got Mako staring up at him like a slightly awed schoolboy. Says it all about Mr O'Connell. Found it here, scroll down https://punditarena.com/rugby/thepateam/watch-paul-oconnell-highlighted-brilliance-owen-farrell-lions-dressing-room/

The coach and captain and team leaders need to be questioned. Jones is failing to deliver. On his salary and profile, not good enough. Time to go.

And Simmonds and Mercer and and and

Great review NB. My takeaway is different however. Some of these players and the coach have had a long time to work out how to deal with adversity and are continuing to fail. Farrell's captaincy is clearly a failure. The team simply doesn't know how to change gears when required I think there is some change needed. Players need to understand their position depends on consistent good performance and a string of poor performances has a consequence. There are a number of decent 9's playing for English Premiership clubs who need to be given a proper chance. The Vumipola's both need a rest at best or to be dropped for an extended period at worst. If you picked a Lions team based on form observed in the 6N, there would be a lot of England players who were considered certainties, not picked. Laughably, The Times suggested on the weekend in a match preview that there were 6 Lions starters in the England forward pack and only 1 Ireland. That hasn't been true for a very long time. Jones needs to go. He's failing to improve a very strong group of players (within and outside the squad) and time is running out for France 2023.

I totally agree. Let him be the “backline captain” (his personality would make that happen anyway), but have a forward as true skipper. Curry could be a Warburton type.

But strangely, Mako often puts in his best games when he looks totally knackered and totally bored by it all. But he hasn't had a great 6N.

He's a conundrum at 12, largely of Jones' making. As a coach he often makes decisive calls on players but is often glacial to reel them back in, if at all. He proclaimed the Ford/Farrell partnership as world beating early on, and has frigged about with it ever since, which to my mind has never brought the best out of either of them. Part of the problem is as a 12 he has enough in the skill set to make him effective, without being truly world class there. But as captain, Jones won't drop him, he'll shuffle him, even if Ford is playing well. So England also never establish a new look at 12, and consequentially fresh ideas in attack. It's a problem, to my mind partly solved by passing the armband, which bizarrely I also think could improve Farrell's game - but that' s a different conversation.

Very decent of you. Thanks.

England's was a strange game. Had a chance to re-watch and still couldn't see anything fundamentally obvious to explain such a disparity in the final score. The match stats didn't explain it either. Then I caught Curry's pitch interview, who answered the 'what went wrong' question with 'a bit of everything'. These immediate comments are often the most honest from a player and he was spot on. There were the unforced errors, misplays, poor choices, tactical missteps, missing players and picky ref calls, which happen in all games and are often less consequential. But these all seemed to culminate in such a way, and at specific times, that they were greater than the sum of the parts. England lost momentum early and never got it back. The first few plays of the (always immensely important start of the) second half encapsulated their woes in that respect. It of course didn't help that Ireland turned up. No one had a stinker on the English side but several Irish players brought their A Game and their influence on the whole team seemed disproportionate. It's been one of the weirder 6N's. It's been a weird year. But with SA absent, France threatening, the latest iteration of the Wallabies still to be settled and NZ potentially also in a hiatus, these next couple of years will see a lot of sorting out and jockeying for position to come I reckon.

Hard to reconcile Billy V selection when there are so many 8's to choose from in the domestic competition and it is such a critical position

Something is amiss in the England set up.. Is it cause for concern and change or a time for coolheads.? .. I recall in a 5 month period in 2006 the Boks losing 5 in a row.. Jake Whites job was then saved.... if John Smit is to be believed....., by a 1 point win over New Zealand. A year later bagging the World Cup..a rethink of Farrells role now also unavoidable...too many question marks over his captaincy.

Another game where Farrells referee management comes into question. He is struggling in this area. Curry is good, but he needs more support in the back row. Interesting that Proudfoot is out in public lauding him as the next McCaw… might be a hint at a new skipper. Some of Ireland tight forwards put their hands up for the Lions. Furlong and Henderson were great in the tight. Tadhg Beirne is playing decent as well, and can play 6 or lock. Has won the most turnovers in the six nations and is a good option in the line out. CJ Stander will leave a hole in that Ireland side, especially given how much he carries the ball.

So what is up with England? They have quality and depth all positions..In Eddie Jones, a head coach who many will rate as one of the top 3 in the world.. In Matthew Proudfoot one of if not the best forward coach.. Yet the sum of the parts are not making a whole. Discipline problems we'll documented, acknowledged even by themselves.. 23 quality players not making up a quality team....some hard questions need to be asked methinks.

I’m not sure it’ll be a concern to Gatland. I think last nights loss to France will be more of a concern to him as it makes it harder to justify picking the entire welsh team :laughing:

It did become a bit of a joke at the end then. At one stage the referee said to AWJ “you would’ve been on a warning but there was foul play” now he did change his mind on that but the warning should’ve never been removed regardless of what else had happened. The wales still have away those penalties. When the referee went upstairs to look at that foul play I originally thought he was looking at George North’s head high on the french try scorer in the act of scoring. That would’ve been another penalty in the red zone and surely should’ve been a yellow regardless of the french scoring. The referee was also reluctant to send more to the bin at the end there because of the two already there. This shouldn’t play into things at all.

Re the captains, not sure if you meant George Ford or Jamie George. I’ll go with Jamie since the other two players you listed their last names. Itoje remains his passive self. Good in the first half and went missing in the second. He’s just not the player he was 2 years ago. Needs something to get his mojo back. Jamie George isn’t the best hooker in the country. Although that didn’t stop Heartly being the captain for a long time. Maybe? My vote goes to Curry, will be around for a long time yet and is a very good and calm player. Leads from the front. I agree Owen is a 10 but George Ford is a much better 10. Playing one is a better option when you have someone like Manu at 12

Thought that ref was pretty good but refusing to look at that try was pretty alarming and for Barnes not to review it was mind boggling.

This game against Ireland just reinforces my view that no English player would get into a Lions first choice pack to take on the Boks. Welsh, Scots all have really good players who are way more deserving and more astute rugby players. Bonus is that none of them are "renting jerseys" as Harry pointed out, or have the attitude issues of their English counterparts. My biggest take away is that folks (on this site at least) are now realizing that the Lions have better line-out options than Itoje. The English front rows are an absolute joke. All the silly buggers disruption stuff going on in the scrums is a clear indication that they are not up to the challenge at test level. But hey, what do I know about rugby? I just hope that Gatland is blind and selects the entire English pack to get the job done against the Boks.

I think Neil knows very well that the Farrell at 12 thing lacks a certain punch