'No longer a leader': Do Wallabies fans need to adjust their expectations?

There's alot that the right coach could sort out given the chance but any illusions about where Australia are and how they have to play need to be dispelled. In terms of resources I'd compare (gross generalisation this but here goes) Australia's current situation to that of a Wales. The difference is that Wales players are harder, approach training and their own fitness more professionally and hold themselves to a higher standard. Wales regions always do poorly in club competitions, but they consistently over achieve and have great recent records against teams they shouldn't. NZ don't play "ball in hand rugby" a phrase long the scourge of wallaby progress, they're fitter, they hit rucks and tackles harder and with better technique and they catch and pass better. Australia needs a Warren Gatland, a master of marshaling humble resources into heroic deeds

France went from a powerhouse to be knocked off to the prophecy of a 2-1 series win being realized... yep ok

Sigh, since its Sunday afternoon I'll try to restate my point. Its this ... the Wallabies are no longer a top 5 rugby nation, as we were for a very long time, and we shouldn't think we can automativally beat teams above us, weakened or not. Expectations that we are going to win home series easily, against top 5 nations (and yes I well and truly accept this was not France's best side, nevertheless as the the results of the series show it wasn't at all a poor side) ignore the reality of our lower position in world rugby rankings. It was a great win last night, one of the best I've seen. No it wasn't a David v Goliath win and I was never saying that (if you would have asked me before the series began I would have picked Aus winning 2-1). I thought they showed great courage and no small amount of skills and smarts last night. Lets hope it continues and lets hope we get a Rugby Championship this year.

You seem to be hell bent on ignoring the fact that this is not even close to the best French side that could have been sent… seemingly it’s at odds with your narrative. Even your rankings reference, what with one whole side separating the two, is hardly evidence of your David vs Goliath story. In any case, Wobblies wobbled past a second rate French side under some of the most difficult conditions for a touring side ever. Take the win, it was a good one, but playing the pauper when it isn’t justified is a little embarrassing.

I know, I really should have ignored it, but it was such a poor one :laughing: What do you think the reasons are for junior success?

Sorry, was just a metaphor..

I don't think sports science has anything to do with it. A pretty level playing field and you won't find many elite players thinking they can do their own thing and maximise performance. That certainly was the case in the 80s in a range of sports as the AIS got going and butted up against tradition. You want to guess which group tended to win? I am not sure of the circumstances of all of our successful youth teams or whether we are really that successful on a continuing basis. However that is not inconsistent with my thoughts above. It would not be surprising that there is a significant advantage in natural talent at youth levels. As size and training effects equal out with age the game also speeds up significantly which is bringing to bear the necessity of performing skills under pressure and fatigue. The concept that players don't own the program or are not emotionally connected is incomprehensible to me. I would be surprised if players who don't get with the program are players who would have had the discipline to rise to a level where they get to choose. I don't have any expertise in the area of fine art but am surprised that is relevant, except maybe as an activity for undisciplined failed rugby players.

This is a big thing. So with all the youth sides doing so well on a shoestring budget, doesn't that indicate our professionals here are being ruined by various professional stuff, like sports science, that they have to subscribe to, that the juniors don't have to worry about? E.g. when a scientist designs a highly specialised program for each player, that player suddenly doesn't own full responsibility for outcomes anymore.. the program assumes the responsibility because it's scientifically ideal. The player just has to stick to the program, but what does he emotionally own anymore as far as his own inspiration, goals or performance go? In that case, who'd learn fine art anymore, when they can just paint by numbers?

"All things considered, Aust fans should have expected to win this series on home soil fairly comfortably." ... the point I am making is that assumption is no longer case with Australian rugby. We are NOT anymore a global power/at the next level who can sweep aside/never lose to teams outside of the top four. Those days, for now, are gone. TO repeat, we are ranked seventh in the world and our top domestic teams were just, frankly, shown to be woefully off the pace/behind in quality. Yes we could have expected to have won fairly comfortably six or more years ago (Ireland and England have both beaten us at home) but these days there is no gap between the top 4 NH teams and Australia (well perhaps there is, but the other way - for instance, we haven;t beaten England since the 2015 WC, on what, 6 or 7 matches?).

Fully agree. The other driving positive factor I would say is the renaissance of club and recreational rugby for adults (i.e. over 18). For what I see and hear things are going pretty well in the country as well, and at a lot of universities (not just the elite Sydney and UQ rugby programs, both of whom do a great job - however much they may gall in other areas - in polishing up potential rugby professionals). I know, this isn't going to automatically strengthen test or SR or 7s sides ... but it will get people involved, and I bet will throw up the odd gem - examples I think for instance are the Arnold brothers, who didn't actually play the game until they were around 20.

Certainly looks like the NH players coming into the Bok camp are better prepared than the local players and it looked that way a few years ago while we were still competing in SR as well.

One could argue that Aussie players who are overseas now works under better coaches and plays in stronger competitions. In so many words, they are better prepared for Test rugby than the ones who are at home.

I think it could definitely help to get into the top four. Some experience from another hemisphere to inject into what is a relatively youthful side. May even have helped close out the game earlier this week.

We lost to France in the 87 WC semi and I don't see any reason why we should consider ourselves a superior Rugby nation apart from a golden period between the mid 80s to late 90s where alot of factors had to break in our favour. Rugby is a bigger sport there, their demographics are more helpful, and their league is one of the best in the world. We got zero right to expect to beat them.

Folau was never the liability Quade or KB were.

Select overseas-based players. See how that goes. Just an idea.

"One other thing is getting the game into state schools. Sevens is already in some state schools so need to build on that." That's really the elephant in the room. Australian Rugby was at its strongest in the 80s and 90s, winning a Grand Slam in the UK, consecutive Bledisloe Cups and two World Cups. It's no coincidence that this was an era when Rugby had a strong presence in the Public School system, unlike today when it's almost totally reliant on the limited Private School competitions for talent. This is where the State and National administrations, particularly in NSW and Queensland, dropped the ball and we've been paying the price up until now with a declining pool of talent to choose from. However, all is not lost, as the recent changes in governance are now beginning to bear fruit. I'm sick to death of all the negative comment about how Australian Rugby is destined to become an also ran. Nothing could be further from the truth. The first steps have been taken to broadening its base by opening up eligibility for the Australian Schoolboys to those Under 18 who are playing with Junior clubs or have left school. Both the Australian Schoolboys & U18 and U20 teams comprehensively beat their NZ counterparts in 2019. The U20 team narrowly lost to France in the 2019 World Championship Final. Many of these same players are in both teams now competing in the current French tour series. There's a lot to be optimistic about. Despite its poor financial situation, RA established a special fund to retain the cream of talent from the U20s in Rugby in competition with Rugby League. It has largely been successful, with one notable exception, although I expect that particular individual will eventually return to Rugby because of the greater opportunities on the world stage. This is Rugby's strength. The next stage is to expand its footprint into the Public and Catholic School systems, where it once had a strong presence. If you look at the potential market for players in both Rugby codes, there is a huge talent pool available, which has until recently been ignored. Rugby in Australia is far from dead.