The undoing of Springbok rugby: Erasmus has plenty to answer for

I wonder how long we will have to wait for Rassie’s next rugby tweet or tiktok post on Etzebeth’s try which clearly shouldn’t have been. Will he highlight Itoje being told to get his hands off the ball despite there being no SA player in the ruck? Will he show how the ball went forward off Faf towards Etzebeth? Surely he won’t overlook how Etzebeth picked up the ball while off his feet, before turning to score the try? Rather than SA being awarded a try, there are 3 very good reasons there for England to be awarded a penalty. But will Rassie pick up on it…….? He’s got a good eye, a good eye indeed…. :thumbup: but only one eye it seems….. :thumbdown:

"He now should be on his last warning." absolutely, but what would he be like if he was just a spectator - he could slander every referee who ever blows a penalty against the SAFAs and go on a 2 hour youtube rant and get away with it because he is just an "enthusiastic" fan trying to make a point

Sure Tooley. He has been almost 100% right on the 50% of the game he has whinged about. He doesnt even look at the other side and that makes him a liar. Constantly crying wolfe will end up having other just ignore him as a looney. Which he clearly is.

Sorry mate I realise that wasn't very clear - I wasn't suggesting the support for Erasmus was that widespread, more that the empty vessels (wessels?) are taking up all the airspace. Good to see Smit and Matfield coming out and offering an alternate voice for people to hear

I think if he stops NOW then you are probably right that it wont be what he is remembered for. ( it wont be forgotten tho ) But if he continues with the attacks and ends up with more attacks and then more bans he will be destroying his legacy. Re the Hansie comment maybe RE is being paid handsomely to be a front man for a cause??? The bit I find frustrating is he could be a leader of a fight to improve reffing but shooting your way in the back door after dark isnt the right approach. Yep more than happy to agree to disagree. :thumbup:

Yes my apologies, I know it was a long winded one. I understand your point of view, I really do. I wish some SA fans would grow up, but your ratio of 10:1 in support of him is not the reality of it I can assure you. Remember my reference to hollow vessels making the most noise. There is intense heat being thrown around all over social media at South Africa/ns which is clearly getting too may immature SAFFAS worked up. Those SAFFAS who agree with you and I are not the ones getting emotional enough to jump all over social media. Please do not make the mistake of thinking he has the widespread support you think he has and painting us all with the same brush. On the SARU issue, I don't understand it either Piru (rumour is they are actually furious with him so the question is why do they appear powerless if that is true), and I do blame them, but I feel it fair to also be very disappointed with World Rugby for not holding them accountable at the start, because if they had, we would not be at this point. No winners in this saga I'm afraid (out of SARU and World Rugby).

Hansie took bribes so in my view we are not comparing apples. But I acknowledge your right to disagree. As I said a lot of people don't agree with me on this and I accept that not everything Rassie has done is beyond reproach. But in my view is in the long run it will just be background noise in his story which has been predominantly amazing as I outlined earlier.

Agree to disagree

What do you think if I say Hanse Cronje?

Well I disagree. The death threats to refs won't be forgotten, the lies won't be forgotten, the extreme bias of his rants won't be forgotten. Rassie is destined to be a loser

In 5 years all that people will remember is the record, the same applies to Mourinho, the same applies to Smit, the same applies in Politics - American Presidents- Bush is a good case in point, The same even applies to Foster- No one will say he was a bang average coach if the All Blacks win next year- Books will be written, songs willl be sung about the Mooloo warrior wg ho helped New Zealand to 3 world cups . Only purists like me worry about commentary. That why John can preach today and no one asks him about Justice for Bakkies. He is just a World Cup and Lions winning captain.

Mate I'll be honest, as much as I appreciate your response, I don't have the wherewithal to reply to all of it! My thoughts are mainly that SARU should have dealt with him immediately (way back when - before he was banned the first time) - when they failed to do so WR should have stepped in. This should all have happened within a week at most. The continued reluctance of SARU to reel him in is baffling - the SA rugby pages are full of people jumping on his bandwagon (its a ratio of 10:1 supporting him, easily). In the absence of leadership from SARU, people are following the pied piper right into the canal. Whether he's right or not is neither here nor there, he's (as the poms would say) bang out of order. Interesting twist last night Owen Farrell was caught on the ref's mic telling him to 'ref both teams' - English media and fans have immediately fallen upon him and decrying his actions. Mbonambi said almost the exact same thing, but when it was brought up SA fans have (again) played the victim and complained that no one else is refereed like they are and what else is he supposed to do? Looking from the outside, it's seemed there's always been a siege mentality to SA rugby, but under Rassie's influence it's morphed into a victim mindset. They've gone from "come and get us" to "why is everyone picking on us"

Yes that's the legacy he has destroyed. When you quote his record its impressive isn't it yet all that is being remembered now is his constant stupid attacks on refs via social media. Bullying refs in their workplace cant be admired by anyone. There is a lot of issues that our current refs have but being sniper's from q distance won't solve anything. Rassie will of course have his supporters and no doubt he has some valid points but his extreme bias, where the refs are supposedly all anti SA, is not a great way to solve the issue. He would probably get a far better response from the games fans if he had pointed out ALL errors, because we can all see them yet he is blinded to one side only.

Haha, yes, I can get caught up and ramble on :laughing:

Perhaps I should also say I. Although I think there are a fair few South Africans who agree with my perspective, it is also true that it is not everyone there are a lot of people who think he should just be quiet to and they are entitled to their viewpoint

Jacko what legacy has Rassie destroyed. His legacy in this country is 1) A Springbok 2) He won Free States 1st Currie Cup in Pretoria after 27 years - Something like 3 sides in the History of our Rugby have won a Currie Cup in Pta. 3) He won a World Cup and Lions Series. 4) Perhaps most importantly he has transformed the Springboks into a brand for everyone in this country. This is something many of his critics locally basically said was impossible. 5) He revived both the Springbok and Free State Unions at a time when their were considered a lost cause If you go through Twitter and look at the background of the people who support Rassie they are incredibly diverse more diverse than any of the previous coaches, captains or teams ever had. South African Rugby fans in general will never forget that, it is the single biggest reason why Rassie will be okay even if the boks lose by 15 plus points on Saturday some loons will say he must be fired but SA Rugby can't and they won't Rassie will leave after the world cup next year, the only question is whether he will have won 2 or 1 world cup. We are fine with either to be honest because what he showed in number 4 above means much more than rugby to this country. In terms of the videos, I think the Springboks do get a worse deal than the ANZAC Countries and the Home Nations in particular, I think they figure it's a no win situation, if things don't improve inspite of the videos they lose nothing causd they already not getting a great deal. The Springboks can't be more unpopular internationally than they are as they have always been unpopular. The one thing I do agree with that John Smit said is only the captain should speak to the referee. The rest I just found self-righteous given the Justice for Bakkies incident.

This is not a bit :laughing:

I think Rassie should be moved into a different role where he is not with test team but works behind the sceens like David in Ireland. He would have the capital to make whatever changes he wanted. He could also work with the URC improving refs with all his knowledge. I think the JN doesn't have the space to swim with such a big character over him (though he might sink without him). I can only imagine what Rassie could do with helping the URC and Currie cup coaches by helping them, he definately could teach the Sharks to us their pack. It doesn't take long for the SA public to see it as an excuse for losing (not sure if he put one out after Italy) and fans see it as Rassie not fixing the problem which was made him good because they would lose but he could tell the media why he saw progress.

I fully agree with you Piru, but I do have a bit to add. Yes, World Rugby need to be seen to be supporting referees, but are they actually supporting referees sufficiently? Its like the refs are set up to fail by them. Its hard to expect more from the best refs but there are far too many poor ones that dont deserve to be there at this point in time (or maybe ever) and the good ones suffer for it. Despite wanting to be perceived as being in control it is very clear they are not, it seems they are more concerned about the perception rather than the heart of the matter. World Rugby have allowed this to go on. I can't recall how long it took but I do know it took far too long for them to deal with Rassie after his first indiscretion. They needed to wave their big stick and lay out what would and would not be tolerated. Given the latest incident I would suggest this did not happen. Furthermore, if rumours are to be believed, SARU are furious with him (and again complex politics at play). If so, World Rugby have not only failed themselves, their employees (refs), and other nations who are tired or this, but the South African public as well who are also actually sick of this (heard the saying "empty vessels make the most noise" ? - i would suggest it is nowhere near the majority of South Africans that approve of Rassies behaviour) . As a SAFFA I'm hugely embarrassed by all this, which should have been nipped in the bud. So im massively massively peeved with them for that. Why should the English Rugby Union have to be reprimanding SARU and writing to them? Obviously because they don't trust World Rugby to speak for them, and who truly does trust them? I reiterate though, I don't agree with Rassie's tantrums. I also think this needed to be a battle between himself and World Rugby rather than other coaches, unions, and the peanut gallery (public). I don't recall him attacking individual unions, coaches, supporters etc? All this creates is an us vs them mentality as everyone does seem to be ganging up on SAFFAS at the moment (no denying some individuals deserve to be slated but this hatred is spreading far and wide). Personally, I don't understand why the public are so invested in this, but I cannot and will not invalid others opinions and say they cannot and should not be outraged, I just don't understand it. I actually think there is much positive that could come from this whole debacle but I don't think World Rugby have the guts and honesty to make the most of it so I don't think anything good will come of it unfortunately. We strive to make the game more professional than ever so why should we accept mediocrity with the administration. I fear they will do more harm to themselves than any other individual such as Rassie, SAFFA supporters or their game plan, or their refs. And finally, I get the importance of refs, but let's not think they are doing us a favour. It's not out of the goodness of their hearts they do it. Refs need to be honest with themselves and step down if need be. They make themselves available so must take the criticism, its par for the course. It just needs to be done behind closed doors and in a respectful way by union management and not as Rassie has done. If we are going all high and mighty then i wish everyone defending refs would do the same for the attacks on coaches as well, are they less human? I have said much but have more unsaid on this Rassie issue, which is a symptom and not a cause.

Just addressing 1 and 2, the problem as I see it, is that when he makes these public ejaculations of paranoid persecution complex, he makes it all the harder for WR to address the any refereeing issue as they have to be seen to be supporting referees. If it's seen that his nonsense gets results, it will only encourage more clown shoes to pipe up, further eroding the institution of referees. Like it or not, we need them