Two southerners at the helm of northern hemisphere teams are facing increasing calls for their sackings after the end of the Autumn Series.
Australian coach of England, Eddie Jones, has defended his record and plan after a demoralising loss to South Africa has unleashed the hounds – with former England stars, ex-coach Clive Woodward, and the nation’s rugby media demanding action.
Meanwhile the Wallabies have left Kiwi Wayne Pivac on the verge of the sack he precipice by storming back from 21 points down on Sunday to beat his Wales team in Cardiff.
The Welsh Rugby Union is due to meet Tuesday (AEDT) and it is widely reported that Pivac will be dismissed after that review.
The major stumbling block appears to be the minimum £1 million ($1.8m) it would cost the cash-strapped union to terminate his contract, and those of his backroom staff, 10 months ahead of time. He is contracted to the end of the 2023 World Cup.
Another Kiwi, Warren Gatland, is the strong favourite to return to the position he filled between 2007 and 2019.
Pivac was due to leave on a World Cup reconnaissance mission but has remained in Wales in the wake of the Wallabies’ crazy come from behind victory.
Meanwhile, 2003 World Cup winning coach Clive Woodward insists England’s dire 27-13 defeat by South Africa at Twickenham has completed the “worst week in English rugby history”.
England produced one of the lowest points of the Jones era against a Springboks side missing their European-based players, ending a dismal Autumn Nations Series that has delivered a solitary victory over Japan.
It completes the nation’s least successful year since 2008, with Jones presiding over six defeats, one draw and five wins in 12 outings.
“This was the worst week in English rugby history,” 2003 World Cup-winning coach Woodward told The Mail on Sunday.
“The game in this country is a total shambles and defeat to a South Africa side without nine of its best players showed it.
“When are the leading figures at the RFU going to wake up and realise English rugby is in trouble? Everything is not OK. Eddie Jones will be allowed to carry on as he likes yet again.
“I was lost for words watching the South Africa game. It was that bad. It was one of the most depressing games I’ve seen at HQ. The England team is miles off where it needs to be.
“I’ve never seen people booing at the final whistle at Twickenham before. It really, really hurts me to see and hear that. I hate it. But at the same time, it also reflects where England are at right now.”
Mike Brown, the nation’s most capped fullback and a stalwart of Jones’ reign until 2018, believes his former head coach must be “held to account” when he faces the customary review from the Rugby Football Union.
“I have stopped believing what comes out of Eddie Jones’ mouth. I’m hearing the same things over and over again,” Brown told The Mail on Sunday.
LONDON, ENGLAND – NOVEMBER 26: Eddie Jones, the England head coach looks on during the Autumn International match between England and South Africa at Twickenham. (Photo by David Rogers/Getty Images)
“We keep getting fed all these narratives about growth and playing style, but it’s not being backed up on the pitch.
“He keeps saying it’s his fault, so what is he doing about it? The time for talking is over. People are bored with it. He needs to be held to account.”
Stuart Barnes, writing in The Times, said the 2022 results of five wins, a draw and six defeats “is a pathetic return for England.”
Jones defended his methods and claimed the team was “not far away,” from where it needed to be.
“He is kidding himself,” raged Barnes. “He is definitely kidding his employers. It takes religious faith to believe in his ever-narrowing, conservative vision.
“‘Eleven months is a long time,’ Jones said, after the match, in regard to the World Cup. It certainly is for England fans with nothing but empty promises and original excuses.
“But he is right. Eleven months is sufficient time for the RFU to show courage and seek someone looking ahead to the future, rather than backwards.”
Barnes said the RFU should be calling in Wayne Smith as a replacement following his “inspiring leadership” of the Black ferns at the recent World Cup.
“Eddie’s England team are risk-averse. Don’t believe the talk of the team being there or thereabouts. The manager bemoans the strategic loss of the aerial battle. He picked a team to take on one of the best kicking sides on the planet. When that skirmish was lost, there was nothing left.
“A trip to Dublin and a French visit to Twickenham in next year’s Six Nations may convince even those with the blindest of faith that a con job is being played out before their eyes.”
Woodward’s former centre Will Greenwood was another to pile on.
“That was one of the most soul-destroying, demoralising, games of rugby I think I’ve ever been to at Twickenham,” Greenwood said in video published online.
“The side look completely devoid and shot of ideas. Scared of it’s own shadow, beaten up, out-played, out-muscled, out-thought.
“You can get caught up in the ‘building World Cup, building World Cup’ evolution and development. If that was happening, and we were playing and getting beaten 47-45 you’d sort of go, ‘yeah well done’,” Greenwood explained.
“But all I know right now is it is tough, tough to defend.”
Another former England star, Matt Dawson, stopped just short of calling for Jones’ departure.
“After England’s defeat by South Africa, the Rugby Football Union has to take a long, hard look at the team and coaching set-up and ask itself a simple question: are we going to win the Rugby World Cup next year?” he wrote for the BBC.
“That is not the standard I’m setting. That is the bar that the RFU itself has set to measure England and Eddie Jones by.
“After this year, with only five wins from 12 Tests, no-one can honestly say that they are on course to do that.
The tournament starts in 10 months. So something fundamental has to change if they are to get close to that goal.
“The Armageddon decision is to let Eddie Jones go and allow someone to get in as head coach and make changes now, with the Six Nations ahead of them.
“Or, if those in charge don’t change Jones, they tell Jones he has to change. And change something substantial and fast.
“What was worrying for me about the England performance was the lack of consequence and responsibility for individual actions.
This was a big game. The world champions were in town and England had one game to put a gloss on a pretty patchy autumn campaign.
But, for all the talk about being adaptable and smart, England could not change the tide of the game.”
Dawson said history suggested sticking with Jones could be a flawed move.
“The tendency is always to give someone under pressure more time because you want them to succeed. On a personal level, that is natural. But the vast majority of the time, it doesn’t work. And the vast majority of the time, you wish you had changed leader sooner than you did.
“Unfortunately that may be the case for Jones.
Whether the RFU makes that call is another thing. Contracts, continuity, a lack of appetite for that big decision might mean it doesn’t.
“But I think whoever you brought in – whether it was Steve Borthwick from Leicester, Alex Sanderson from Sale, Ronan O’Gara from La Rochelle, Scott Robertson from Crusaders – would spark an immediate improvement. I think you would see some brilliance from England.”
Jones, meanwhile, insisted his plan was solid and the team was on course to peak in France next year.
“Hundred per cent. And I am sure [fans] will have doubts like you guys. I am standing in front of you and you’re telling me I don’t know how to coach, basically. Right? So that’s alright, and I am sure some of the fans feel like that.
“But, you know, it’s a progression to the World Cup, we have our ups and downs, today we were badly beaten at the scrum, and therefore the rest of the game becomes very difficult to judge.”
Neil Back
Roar Rookie
OM. There’s me thinking I’ve given you the respect of lengthy and qualified answers. I’m sorry you found offence in them, it wasn’t the intent. And at the risk of compounding that offence, given you’ve already found it, I’d question if you are robust enough to be on public forums and if you want to be left alone, posting to them may not be wise?
Englishbob
Guest
I think Pivacs situation is more forgivable than EJ. Once he names the team, he can make a few subs but otherwise any coach relies on their players, his captain tripping someone and getting a YC was absolute lunacy, he has a small player pool of 4 clubs that are hammered week in week out by the other URC teams and he has no money. EJ needs to go now. I dont know what razors contract situation would be, I think probably unlikely unless he can somehow twin track his roles but I'd love for him to come up. There's a few very good English/ Irish possibles but from what I hear razor is a fantastic man manager
Brendan NH Fan
Roar Rookie
Jones is the prime example of the mentality of only the WC matters and the other 3 years and 10 months are just keeping the boys fit and doing all the great stuff in training that will magically happen come World Cup time. Managers aren't stupid and will use that line till proven wrong and as long as fans only care about the WC, as Oz and NZ are finding out when the WC is over its not certain you can make up the ground over the next WC cycle that you lost in the last. Pivac has been poor except for the 6 nations they won when nearly every other team got a red card. Oz went through it with Chekia last time, as did NZ with Hansen where the 2015 WC results was all people looked at rather than the actual players and results the manger had heading into 2019. England seem to be on for repeating it. Because of the WC draw you could have two countries who kept their poor coach v two countries who got rid of theirs, whoever makes the semi will say they did the right thing.
King in the north
Roar Rookie
Um, I don’t see why my geographical knowledge is in question. I said “imagine…”. My point was in reference to the moaning about SH players in NH teams like England. I suggested they would look a lot like our team if Polynesia was in their ocean instead of the Pacific. Jeez. Let me know if any of the words are too big.
Passit2me
Roar Rookie
I wonder how long we will have not wait for Rassie’s next rugby tweet or tiktok post on Etzebeth’s try which clearly shouldn’t have been. Will he highlight Itoje being told to get his hands off the ball despite there being no SA player in the ruck? Will he show how the ball went forward off Faf towards Etzebeth? Surely he won’t overlook how Etzebeth picked up the ball while off his feet, before turning to score the try? Rather than SA being awarded a try, there are 3 very good reasons there for England to be awarded a penalty. But will Rassie pick up on it…….? He’s got a good eye, a good eye indeed :thumbup: but only one eye it seems….. :thumbdown:
Otago Man
Roar Rookie
Deleted, because of duplication.
Otago Man
Roar Rookie
NB I think you are doing a switch and bait. You wanted to waste time with me when I thought you wanted a discussion. You just said the problem was Jones when I say it is more than him. I find your manner condescending after you approached me and started to misrepresent myself as a time thief. Dare I suggest you have done that to me. You just don't like a different opinion. Unless you have something constructive leave me alone.
Neil Back
Roar Rookie
Thanks MZ. The meds help. As does a new strategy I discovered. Last weekend after 20 minutes of increasingly frustrating nonsense from England, I watched Bill V demand the ball midfield with at least a potential 4 on 2 overlap developing outside him. Instead he chose to run unopposed for 10 meters straight at Etzebeth and a clutch of other waiting forwards. Turned it off and did something else. Felt immediately better. Please let me know when it's all over!
Neil Back
Roar Rookie
Mate, why didn't you just say from the start that you think the key issue is that we all want to 'blame an outsider'? I needn't have bothered giving you reasoned, considered, demonstrable and easily observed examples?! We could have gone straight to that and I'd have left a long time ago!
mzilikazi
Roar Pro
That is a really good post, Neil. You lay out the problem in stark clarity. I have never in a long life of being involved in rugby, first a player, then a coach, and now a watcher on the sidelines, ever seen anything even close to this Jones debacle. I truly feel for people like yourself, watching your great rugby nation, brimful of talent, capable of standing tall with the rest of the world’s top sides, flounder as they did last weekend. That was, especially at the end, an awful performance by a team coached by a delusional human being. And then I read comments here on Roar where some are wanting Jones down here again coaching the WB’s…..whatever it costs !! Then we really would have to consider moving to NZ.
Otago Man
Roar Rookie
Well NB you might be done but you did come to me. Was it a leg up for Jones because he did get an English side that did not make it to the quarters in 2015. Not denying Lancaster had some good results at times but if we are judging by cup success then...I think the problem is undeniably blaming an outsider when there is a myriad of problems hanging over from past administrations and their attitudes towards changing the style of play.
Pom in exile
Roar Rookie
How could I forget Charlie Ewels? Even die hard Bath fans were puzzled as to how he amassed 30 caps.
Neil Back
Roar Rookie
Obviously other factors play. Take the Irtish set up which is unique. But if you can't recognise the massive leg-up a coach like Jones has been given, that's on you. But since I have to keep painting examples, I'll give you one last one. Jones' predecessor Stuart Lancaster knew the age group pathways because he'd coached in them, he understood the importance, and also had successful U20 pickings. The wider squad Jones inherited from him barely changed through his then world record consecutive wins. Once he started to tinker and burn out the backroom, the slide happened. Now we have new records which include the two worst 6N finishes ever. One last time because I'm done. The problem is undeniably Jones.
Otago Man
Roar Rookie
It still doesn't follow that a good U20 makes for a good test team in time. The demands of the first class game are greater that at the youth level and the players development at different rates. There is a fair degree of parochial bias at the junior levels were some players are picked ahead of potentially better players. Nico Jones was pushed really early here because of his schoolboy exploits and who his father was. He can't even make the Moana Pasifika squad this year. He might end a good player but he is not there yet. Good coaching through the ranks helps as well.
Neil Back
Roar Rookie
6 continuous years worth of finalists, many of whom should be in their prime right now. NZ had 2 in that time. South Africa had 1. France also 1. Come on .....
Otago Man
Roar Rookie
Ok fair points, however I would suggest that other U20s players have struggled to make an impact at the highest level. The ABs are not really pushing them through at a great rate the last few years.
mzilikazi
Roar Pro
Good post, Pom. I really like Underhill....truly hard man.
mzilikazi
Roar Pro
Great name, GoaB. Conjures up some amusing, and scary images. Buffalos kill a lot of people in Zimbabwe, I seem to recall from my days there :happy:
Neil Back
Roar Rookie
Otago Man, Good on Pom in Exile for trying to give you micro answers, but the answers are more macro. Consider this. England U20’s featured in every RWC final from 2013 to 2018 inclusive, winning 3 times, runners up 3 times. Think about that. No modern-day coach has had such apparent riches to bring through to a senior RWC final next year. You ask what the combinations England should have today. Simple answer, we don’t know, but more damningly, nor does Jones. And a big reason why we don’t know is because Jones has hardly ever brought talent through, developed, nurtured and integrated on the international stage. Instead, it’s been a select and discard merry-go-round before returning to out of form or out of position favourites. It is not because the talent is not there. One case in point. Zach Mercer, a number 8 and loosie. Star of the England U20 set up, captained a grand slam side, nominated world rugby junior player of the year. Jones gave him one meaningful senior start before discarding him. Mercer himself has since said he knew he was done after that one game. He leaves Bath, joins Montpellier, is the star of a top 14 final and is voted best player in the French league 2021-2022. He’s 24 and he’s English. He’s nowhere near Eddie’s England …and don’t tell me he’s not big enough to handle SA, French or Irish type forwards because he does it every week. Consider also England’s baffling inability to score, the high penalty counts, the handling errors, the collapse of otherwise functioning set pieces etc etc. And then consider the unprecedented coaching staff turnover under Jones. It's been head spinning. Yet another defence coach left just this Sunday. Consider also that those leavers are forced to sign NDA’s by Jones. The problem is undeniably Jones.
Pom in exile
Roar Rookie
I know right. :laughing: