Oh, I didn’t know that. Didn’t do any research per say, just came across that article I mentioned by chance (online). Don’t remember what it was called or which players were mentioned. I guess Nic Maddison might be another from memory – did he play any others tests after that dead rubber win against the saffies in Adelaide four years ago?
He had 2 knee reconstructions at unfortunate times Bernie and that cost him big time, so after fighting back into contention he was given one test - how sad. Does your research reveal any others who were only given one chance ?
Sorry mate we'll need to agree to disagree on this one. An outgoing batsman cannot determine the outcome of the incoming batsman when considering "timed out". The MCC law on this is quite clear.
Btw Chris it is pretty certain that if drs had been around in the late 1980s early 1990s who would have been the Shane Watson review burner back then ... Dean Jones for sure.
Anyway Chris… dopey as your last couple of comments have been- we can certainly move past that right?
I’ll tell you a funny story: a year or so back a batsman in a game I was officiating in was standing there and he was like 60 years old and pathetically refusing to leave the crease. He wasn’t going off his tree and intimidating anyone but he was doing the usual incredulous hand gestures and “you’ve got to be kidding routine” so as I was walking out to collect the ball from the celebrating fielding team I just said to him kindly “come on Shane Watson … off you go” …
As I walked back to my position past the non-striker he said to me grinning “great play mate – don’t worry he’s never out”.
Look dude, I didn’t mean to humiliate you Chris but seriously what were you thinking when you decided to deride something I said without knowledge and then continually argue about it?? Makes no sense fella.????
As far as Callum Ferguson goes, I believe he could have carved out a worthy test career, but he was probably picked at the wrong time – as in a couple of years too late. He should perhaps have been given a go during the period he was doing ok in one day cricket, especially since this was the period where Adam Voges was fattening his run account on pop gun, minnow attacks but then let us down big time in the 2015 Ashes series, which we were supposed to win, and when the selectors had actually stuck by him (Voges).
If it’s any consolation, Ferguson wasn’t the only player in recent times to endure this, quite a few have over the last decade and a bit. I was reading an article about a year ago that revealed a staggering amount of players picked to wear the baggy green since the end of the great teams of a decade or so ago – staggering compared to the number picked over similar time frames in previous eras. What was also horrifying is the number who were picked and then discarded after only 1, 2, 3 or 4 tests and the obvious conclusion to be drawn was that it was a period of poor selection practices and that all those players, Ferguson among them, should either have been given more time to establish themselves or should never have been picked in the first place.
As I said, Ferguson would have had a better chance of success if he had been picked a little earlier and if I could change one thing from the last decade, I would prolly have him on the 2015 Ashes tour instead of Voges.
OSCB, The incoming batsman has everything to do with it if he does not fulfill the specific conditions. Therefore, he would be ill-advised to linger in his dressing shed having some weird and wonderful idea that his team mate’s tantrum might be successful in overturning the decision.
If the incoming batsman is out there ready and the dismissed batsman still refusing to leave, then the game cannot continue as his presence is an obstruction within the field of play. In such an instance the captain better intervene quickly or it is tantamount to the team refusing to continue the match in which case it can be awarded to the other team upon appeal.
Since last year’s summer season there is also the added safety measures that some competitions have introduced, such as the one that I umpire in, where nobody is allowed within 7 metres of the striker without a helmet. So if the batsman refusing to leave has taken off his helmet and is within such a distance. And also, if he was refusing to leave the actual spot that the striker takes strike from than he is also preventing the incoming batsman from being ready to take strike.
Yes seriously dude, stop clutching at straws it is not only a very real potential situation, but none other than Mel Johnson (if you know who he was) said to do just that in an umpiring seminar I attended more than 20 years ago.
In lower grades of cricket it certainly does happen that a batsman stands there and refuses to leave thinking he can intimidate the umpire into changing his decision – especially in grades where the batting side does square leg and desperately tries to claim a higher than waist no-ball, for example, not even knowing that only a badged umpire can call such no-balls. You also have aggressive parents and coaches at junior levels.
It doesn’t get to quite that extreme but it does occasionally – as an umpire in his 28th season, I have used such a threat on a small handful of occasions. Once three minutes is up from the point of dismissal, then the fielding side can legitimately appeal for timed out. Don’t be so ridiculous to claim I need a better understanding of the game. I know the laws backwards, inside out, and have years of experience of different types of player personalities. Do you?
Appreciate your comments boys - the hysteria comes from being a long suffering South Australian and the sad memories of Callum Ferguson's treatment a few years ago (one test and he was run out in one of his innings) I'm bouyed be your confidence that he will be retained. We'll see.
Neither hot spot nor snicko can pick up everything, one of the reasons why they have both. How hot the day is can also affect hot spot's ability to pick up edges. I agree there have been occasions where batsmen don't realise they've hit the ball. It's not that common though. Most of the time you know you've edged one. And most of the time batsmen think they haven't when they have it's when the bat also hit the pad or the ground at the same time, which likely then hid the feeling of the fine edge.
But the point still stands, having most of your games played in conditions where you have the chance to challenge what you feel is a bad call against you probably makes it harder to accept when you get such a decision in a match where you don't have those options. (Obviously, this is just speculation, but reasonable, as I've never played any cricket where I've had access to DRS :-P)
Seriously? You bring up a completely ridiculous situation and then claim that somehow I’m the one being dopey? Apart from the fact that the whole idea of a batsman just having a stand-off with an umpire and basically refusing to leave is patently ridiculous, the idea that such a thing would go on for minutes with that argument happening and then suddenly have people appeal about timing out the next batsman when the last one hasn’t even left the pitch is a patently ridiculous scenario. The fact you keep pushing ahead with this and condescendingly refer to others as “dopey” and “without knowledge” for not going along with your ridiculous fantasies is just incredible.
Try actually getting an understanding of the game before spouting out these sorts of ridiculous arguments. You might save yourself significant embarrassment.
Assuming you're right what penalty is applied to the batsman for not walking when given not out (and he knows he nicked it to the keeper)? Swings and roundabouts for all batsman. The laws are in place they work both ways. As far as the poor umpire sledge goes, this fella has two decades of first class playing experience, many years of international umpire experience. He will always be a better cricket and umpire than you and I.
The outgoing batsman has nothing to do with law 40.1 (as long as the incoming batsman is in the correct position within the prescribed time he cannot be given timed out).
Once Upon a Time on the Roar
Roar Guru
Below is Law 40 in its entirety. It doesn’t mention anything regarding potential causes of the next batsman not fulfilling the 3 minute time limit requirement nor does it need to. As I have said, if the next batsman in, witnessing the carrying on of the dismissed batsman refusing to accept the decision, then (foolishly) waits to see whether the umpire changes his decision will run the very real risk of not making that 3 minute time limit. If the next batsman goes straight out there and fulfills the 3 minute requirement and he himself is ready but the dismissed batsman was still refusing to leave then the longer he carries on with this unwarranted action, then it assumes the status of Law 16.3 which I have included below Law 40. The key overriding words in 16.3 are ‘If an umpire considers’. Obviously, in such an extreme situation, any batting side captain with half a brain would get straight out there and try and talk some sense into his dissenting players. 40.1.1 After the fall of a wicket or the retirement of a batsman, the incoming batsman must, unless Time has been called, be in position to take guard or for the other batsman to be ready to receive the next ball within 3 minutes of the dismissal or retirement. If this requirement is not met, the incoming batsman will be out, Timed out. 40.1.2 In the event of an extended delay in which no batsman comes to the wicket, the umpires shall adopt the procedure of Law 16.3 (Umpires awarding a match). For the purposes of that Law the start of the action shall be taken as the expiry of the 3 minutes referred to above. 40.2 Bowler does not get credit The bowler does not get credit for the wicket. 16.3.2 if an umpire considers that an action by any player or players might constitute a refusal by either side to play then the umpires together shall ascertain the cause of the action. If they then decide together that this action does constitute a refusal to play by one side, they shall so inform the captain of that side. If the captain persists in the action the umpires shall award the match in accordance with 16.3.1. See also Law 42.6.1 (Captain refusing to remove a player from the field). © Marylebone Cricket Club 2017
Once Upon a Time on the Roar
Roar Guru
You are seriously delusional if you think I am behind.
Once Upon a Time on the Roar
Roar Guru
Oh, I didn’t know that. Didn’t do any research per say, just came across that article I mentioned by chance (online). Don’t remember what it was called or which players were mentioned. I guess Nic Maddison might be another from memory – did he play any others tests after that dead rubber win against the saffies in Adelaide four years ago?
Chris Kettlewell
Roar Guru
Seriously dude. The only person you are humiliating is yourself. Quit while you are behind!
Spanner
Roar Rookie
He had 2 knee reconstructions at unfortunate times Bernie and that cost him big time, so after fighting back into contention he was given one test - how sad. Does your research reveal any others who were only given one chance ?
Censored Often
Roar Rookie
Sorry mate we'll need to agree to disagree on this one. An outgoing batsman cannot determine the outcome of the incoming batsman when considering "timed out". The MCC law on this is quite clear.
Censored Often
Roar Rookie
I thought it was Rod Tucker.
Once Upon a Time on the Roar
Roar Guru
Btw Chris it is pretty certain that if drs had been around in the late 1980s early 1990s who would have been the Shane Watson review burner back then ... Dean Jones for sure.
Once Upon a Time on the Roar
Roar Guru
Anyway Chris… dopey as your last couple of comments have been- we can certainly move past that right? I’ll tell you a funny story: a year or so back a batsman in a game I was officiating in was standing there and he was like 60 years old and pathetically refusing to leave the crease. He wasn’t going off his tree and intimidating anyone but he was doing the usual incredulous hand gestures and “you’ve got to be kidding routine” so as I was walking out to collect the ball from the celebrating fielding team I just said to him kindly “come on Shane Watson … off you go” … As I walked back to my position past the non-striker he said to me grinning “great play mate – don’t worry he’s never out”. Look dude, I didn’t mean to humiliate you Chris but seriously what were you thinking when you decided to deride something I said without knowledge and then continually argue about it?? Makes no sense fella.????
Once Upon a Time on the Roar
Roar Guru
As far as Callum Ferguson goes, I believe he could have carved out a worthy test career, but he was probably picked at the wrong time – as in a couple of years too late. He should perhaps have been given a go during the period he was doing ok in one day cricket, especially since this was the period where Adam Voges was fattening his run account on pop gun, minnow attacks but then let us down big time in the 2015 Ashes series, which we were supposed to win, and when the selectors had actually stuck by him (Voges). If it’s any consolation, Ferguson wasn’t the only player in recent times to endure this, quite a few have over the last decade and a bit. I was reading an article about a year ago that revealed a staggering amount of players picked to wear the baggy green since the end of the great teams of a decade or so ago – staggering compared to the number picked over similar time frames in previous eras. What was also horrifying is the number who were picked and then discarded after only 1, 2, 3 or 4 tests and the obvious conclusion to be drawn was that it was a period of poor selection practices and that all those players, Ferguson among them, should either have been given more time to establish themselves or should never have been picked in the first place. As I said, Ferguson would have had a better chance of success if he had been picked a little earlier and if I could change one thing from the last decade, I would prolly have him on the 2015 Ashes tour instead of Voges.
Once Upon a Time on the Roar
Roar Guru
Who is the umpire? Was it Paul Reiffel?
josh
Roar Rookie
Proof Warnie would have taken 1,200 wickets if there are given along with ones outside leg.
Once Upon a Time on the Roar
Roar Guru
OSCB, The incoming batsman has everything to do with it if he does not fulfill the specific conditions. Therefore, he would be ill-advised to linger in his dressing shed having some weird and wonderful idea that his team mate’s tantrum might be successful in overturning the decision. If the incoming batsman is out there ready and the dismissed batsman still refusing to leave, then the game cannot continue as his presence is an obstruction within the field of play. In such an instance the captain better intervene quickly or it is tantamount to the team refusing to continue the match in which case it can be awarded to the other team upon appeal. Since last year’s summer season there is also the added safety measures that some competitions have introduced, such as the one that I umpire in, where nobody is allowed within 7 metres of the striker without a helmet. So if the batsman refusing to leave has taken off his helmet and is within such a distance. And also, if he was refusing to leave the actual spot that the striker takes strike from than he is also preventing the incoming batsman from being ready to take strike.
Once Upon a Time on the Roar
Roar Guru
Yes seriously dude, stop clutching at straws it is not only a very real potential situation, but none other than Mel Johnson (if you know who he was) said to do just that in an umpiring seminar I attended more than 20 years ago. In lower grades of cricket it certainly does happen that a batsman stands there and refuses to leave thinking he can intimidate the umpire into changing his decision – especially in grades where the batting side does square leg and desperately tries to claim a higher than waist no-ball, for example, not even knowing that only a badged umpire can call such no-balls. You also have aggressive parents and coaches at junior levels. It doesn’t get to quite that extreme but it does occasionally – as an umpire in his 28th season, I have used such a threat on a small handful of occasions. Once three minutes is up from the point of dismissal, then the fielding side can legitimately appeal for timed out. Don’t be so ridiculous to claim I need a better understanding of the game. I know the laws backwards, inside out, and have years of experience of different types of player personalities. Do you?
Spanner
Roar Rookie
Appreciate your comments boys - the hysteria comes from being a long suffering South Australian and the sad memories of Callum Ferguson's treatment a few years ago (one test and he was run out in one of his innings) I'm bouyed be your confidence that he will be retained. We'll see.
Chris Kettlewell
Roar Guru
Neither hot spot nor snicko can pick up everything, one of the reasons why they have both. How hot the day is can also affect hot spot's ability to pick up edges. I agree there have been occasions where batsmen don't realise they've hit the ball. It's not that common though. Most of the time you know you've edged one. And most of the time batsmen think they haven't when they have it's when the bat also hit the pad or the ground at the same time, which likely then hid the feeling of the fine edge. But the point still stands, having most of your games played in conditions where you have the chance to challenge what you feel is a bad call against you probably makes it harder to accept when you get such a decision in a match where you don't have those options. (Obviously, this is just speculation, but reasonable, as I've never played any cricket where I've had access to DRS :-P)
Chris Kettlewell
Roar Guru
Seriously? You bring up a completely ridiculous situation and then claim that somehow I’m the one being dopey? Apart from the fact that the whole idea of a batsman just having a stand-off with an umpire and basically refusing to leave is patently ridiculous, the idea that such a thing would go on for minutes with that argument happening and then suddenly have people appeal about timing out the next batsman when the last one hasn’t even left the pitch is a patently ridiculous scenario. The fact you keep pushing ahead with this and condescendingly refer to others as “dopey” and “without knowledge” for not going along with your ridiculous fantasies is just incredible. Try actually getting an understanding of the game before spouting out these sorts of ridiculous arguments. You might save yourself significant embarrassment.
Censored Often
Roar Rookie
Assuming you're right what penalty is applied to the batsman for not walking when given not out (and he knows he nicked it to the keeper)? Swings and roundabouts for all batsman. The laws are in place they work both ways. As far as the poor umpire sledge goes, this fella has two decades of first class playing experience, many years of international umpire experience. He will always be a better cricket and umpire than you and I.
Censored Often
Roar Rookie
The outgoing batsman has nothing to do with law 40.1 (as long as the incoming batsman is in the correct position within the prescribed time he cannot be given timed out).
Censored Often
Roar Rookie
Perhaps we should give the umpires full computer screens to make their decisions.