Ardie Savea and Sam Cane are both predominantly sevens.
Both are dynamic openside flankers. However, they are the two best forwards the All Blacks have. Thus, it is no surprise that they want them in their back row. They have a six-seven-eight of Shannon Frizell, Sam Cane and Ardie Savea respectively.
However, if they want to maintain the presence of two of their best forwards, they need to play it in such a way.
Why is Ardie Savea at eight? He is an explosive ball-carrier, and six is a thankless job where you have to be very hardworking and smash out rucks.
However, if you want a maximised back row with Savea at eight, you will want a dynamic six in Lachlan Boshier with the skills, pace and power. However, they never picked Boshier and they never got that six option.
What is wrong with Ardie Savea at eight? Hoskins Sotutu is the new Kieran Read. Ball skills, passing and raw physicality are so characteristic of him.
He has good hands to get the ball away in the tackle and can also do an unlocking pass that backs are often needed to do. He has excellent defence and he is a better attacking eight than Savea through his ball skills.
While Savea has the agility and sidestep honed by playing sevens, Sotutu is a more complete attacker.
They took away a wonderful attacking threat at eight. Also, here is another theory that could be used: Savea at six, Cane to seven, and Sotutu to eight.
(Photo by Cameron Spencer/Getty Images)
However, this may not work as the six has to do lot of dirty work, carrying the ball in when there is not a chance of going forward, smashing out rucks, and slowing the ball down even if you cannot make the turnover.
The All Blacks are still trying to entertain, not win.
It is reported that Savea is 95 kilos, but was 103 kilos at the point of the World Cup quarter-final with Ireland. I do not think he has dropped. While he is certainly a little below average in size, he has the work rate, fitness, and drive to do the job of a six.
The question is will the All Blacks be willing to waste him at six?
I think not. But if they do use this, it could be a solution.
Or another combo they could employ is making a tough choice between Sam Cane and Savea, taking out one of their two best forwards.
They can have a specialist six. Akira Ioane, Shannon Frizell and Cullen Grace are extremely viable options.
Either way, what the All Blacks have right now is not working as it hinders their phenomenal attacking eight Sotutu for being on the field.
A core truth of success is that you need the right people, not the best people.
Can the All Blacks solve this selection dilemma?
frisky
Roar Rookie
:laughing::laughing:
Old Bugger
Guest
Pundit Don't you know, that you can have your cake and eat it too.....?? What you won't get, is the fresh cream and strawberries, on top. This season is basically, done and dusted bar the final game(s) against the Puma. For all coaching teams, it will be back to the drawing board over the xmas break and a complete over-view of how the test matches went.....and, my guess is it will be ugly so just as well, these reviews will be held behind closed doors. For the players, it will be another short break, then tuning into training for next year's super rugby comps, starting in February. I'll make another guess......some players, who gained a test cap this year will probably miss out, on selection next year especially, for the ABs. No need to name them - we all know who is likely to miss that phone call because, it doesn't matter if you had any form this year. What matters, is how each player will find that form again, next year. I've always harped on how the AB coaches, in particular, need to find players that have the ability to execute their game plans and tactics because, it seemed to me that a lot of players in this test season, were incapable of providing that ability. I don't blame selections because every player is as good as anyone else and to that end, has been given an opportunity to show-case their ability, in the test arena. Players need to knuckle down and be prepared to put-in the hard yakka otherwise, they will be found out that their ability isn't as sharp, as what they believed. And, amongst 30 players running around the paddock, there's no place to hide, when you get found out. Oh and btw, compliments of the season, to everyone.
Lara
Guest
The other reason ,I would prefer a mongrel is, there is a halfback called Aaron Smith , who fires bullets from the base of the ruck with laser precision. Get it over the game line, suck in the defenders n release clean , fast pill.
Lara
Guest
I want more mongrel , a big one, actually two would help. Finesse is fine, but mongrel works most of the time, if controlled. Papalii , seems to fit that bill, with the skills of Sotutu n the leadership of Cane n the mix might work. With Retallick back at some stage n that ABs pack is starting to look more balanced. Papali, could do the job....he could do a lot of damage.
moaman
Roar Guru
.....bora lite Skanska! :stoked:
The Neutral View From Sweden
Roar Guru
Thanks. Your Swedish look really solid. :thumbup:
smoothy
Roar Rookie
That was my point really. It seems odd (and a touch sentimental) that the selectors haven’t considered that Cane may be the more logical/natural positional switch. I just think his game transfers to blindside much more effectively than Savea’s to no.8. And as you’ve already said, by plugging Savea there - it hinders the development of an obvious talent (Sotutu).
JD Kiwi
Roar Rookie
Can Sotutu give a test match intensity performance for 80 minutes though? You and I really have no idea, but Foster is there. We've seen that Patrick and Shannon can't, even though they can in Super. While Cane and Savea are the only loosies that can, they have to start.
Pundit
Roar Guru
Then Cane 6. But Cane is not doing the complete 6 job because he is doing the 7 job
moaman
Roar Guru
Just trying to help mate. Your English is impressive. Jag talar inte Svenska, so.......
The Neutral View From Sweden
Roar Guru
maybe you mean ‘from the get-go’? Yes. (It is early morning in Sweden, and morning coffee has not kicked in yet). Sorry. Agree with you regarding the Jordie-selection and Fozzy's lip-service to balance.
moaman
Roar Guru
"for the go."? maybe you mean 'from the get-go'? Yeah, I would have liked to have seen him start Game 1. Playing Ardie and thereby forming a smaller backrow was the forerunner to playing Jordie on the right wing. Seems like Foster has identified the players he wants on the park and he shoehorns them in without paying more than lip-service to 'balance'.
The Neutral View From Sweden
Roar Guru
It is always easy to criticize in hindsight, but one call I think the AB’s selectors got wrong was to not implement Sotutu as the starting number eight from the get-go (EDIT). I think a fair few of us thought from the first time we saw Sotutu at SR level that; “yup, that is the guy to replace Read with”. That he got injured – while in peak form – during SRA and might have dented his chances a bit, but still…
smoothy
Roar Rookie
“six has to do lot of dirty work, carrying the ball in when there is not a chance of going forward, smashing out rucks, and slowing the ball down even if you cannot make the turnover.” I thought this was an interesting comment – which is quite true to the role… One might also think you were describing Sam Cane! :laughing: That would allow him to use his dominant tackles as a weapon – as well as Savea to play his natural game!
Pundit
Roar Guru
no, but he jobshared the 8 position off the scrum with savea because htey wanted savea for explosive carrying
Emery Ambrose
Roar Rookie
Its a hard one for sure, its frustrating having a limited amount of tests this year. Hopefully next year if the Northerners can't make it and we cant go there, that they play 4 or 5 tests against the Pacific Island teams. I think the ABs defense as whole is great and the loosies get the job done, we just need a more attacking/running loosie, Savea doesn't have his impact at 8, Sotutu might be the way to go for while and giving a different 6 a go, while Frizell is solid as a fall back. I would like to see some combos of 7 - Cane, 8 - Sotutu, 6 - Grace/Jacobson/Ioane or even Papalii. Foster or whoever coaches, may have to create a 6.
Tooly
Roar Rookie
If only they had legends like Hooper, Hanigan and Wilson .
Tom
Guest
Been lots of teams try and fit two opensides. Wallabys with hooper andtheZimbabwe guy. Alright when you are winning but when under pressure you need the extra kilos to set and get a bit of go forward. Took a while for for Rodney and jerry to cut the penaltys and tackles. Jeepers would have been a few cards in their early tests. But with coaching and their ability turned into ab greats. Did read start at 6.
moaman
Roar Guru
I already have Sotutu starting in MY armchair-selection! Savea warms the pine.
JD Kiwi
Roar Rookie
Hi KH, trouble is that Frizzell seems to be the closest thing we have to a "real 6" at the moment and he's already playing. The other problem is, apart from Cane, Ardie and Whitelock, do we have a back five forward who can sustain a test level performance for 80 minutes? I'm not sure that we do, so with only two back five replacements we probably have to start Ardie. In the next year or two that could improve of course. At 20 Grace is an amazing rugged yet agile prospect, at 29 Squire is back home and at 26 Frizzell, who is six foot five like Kaino, might just be a late developer attitude wise like Kaino. So might Akira. Luke Jacobson has been injured and not as big, but has the attitude and hits hard. But he might be better at 7. At 8 the question is really when Sotutu will be able to play 80 test match intensity minutes. I just don't see him as an enforcer, but he could soon be a more rounded 8 than Savea. In conclusion, until we have a genuine test quality six who can go the distance, or Sotutu gets there at 8, Savea has to start.