How to fix tribunal inconsistencies with raised elbows

By AJ73 / Roar Rookie

Toby Greene’s suspension for his hit on Dangerfield in Round 21 has again highlighted the inconsistency in the decisions made by the AFL tribunal.

It seems to be that the match review officer chooses to cite players who cause injury and not cite them if the targeted player continues to play.

How does this work in cases of delayed concussion? It appears to me to be very hard to find the exact moment that concussion occurred. You don’t need to be knocked out to suffer a concussion.

It’s also not a great feeling to have a concussion, I have unfortunately suffered three or four during my playing days. The last one led to me ending my playing career after I convulsed on the field. It took me several weeks to recover.

The result of the action should not determine whether a player is cited or not; the action is what should be cited. If the AFL (and other codes) are serious about eliminating actions from the game, they need to look at the action and not the result of the action in determining whether a player is to be suspended or not.

The impact should only play a part in determining the sentence. For instance, elbows to the throat or head should all receive an automatic two-week penalty regardless of the outcome of the action. The outcome could add weeks or a further fine, maybe on a sliding scale.

Raised forearms and elbows

Patrick Dangerfield on Nick Vlastuin
Many people talk about two actions. Dangerfield extends his arm to punch the ball away and then brings it back in a natural motion. If you don’t agree, try running at speed and keeping your arm outstretched. Contact is then made with Vlastuin’s head.

Verdict: No suspension.

Should have been? This is where ‘is it a football action?’ question needs a hard definition. It’s maybe worth one week.

The outcome should not come into play until a guilty verdict is returned. You need to ask: what real options did Dangerfield have? If he didn’t bring his arm in, what might have happened? There could have been a clash of heads between Dangerfield and Vlastuin, and he maybe could have even collected Dylan Grimes.

Was it a natural movement of the arm? Most anti-Dangerfield people will say no. Did it deserve suspension due to the outcome? Or did it deserve suspension at all? There was little time to change his body position or move his arm anywhere else.

What Vlastuin was doing running flat out into a contested contest is another question that should be asked. Even without Dangerfield’s arm there he was going to possibly suffer serious damage or cause damage to Dangerfield and his teammate. Where was the time to do anything else?

If this had been a suspension, then it would have opened a bigger can of worms, as you would then have had to look at every contest that caused someone to be hurt and decide whether it was a football action or not.

Toby Greene on Patrick Dangerfield
Greene had time to make up his mind. He saw Dangerfield coming and still had time to collect the ball. Greene comes up with the ball with his arm braced in front of him.

Verdict: one week.

Should have been? It was probably worth two weeks.

He did have other options, and he did have more time to make the decision. If the forearm had stayed down, Greene would have had nothing to answer for. Greene had a better option than Dangerfield – he could have turned his body and not raised his arm.

But then again, this could have led to a head clash as well. Do we want to suspend players who go for the ball and clash heads in this type of contest? It is different to electing to bump, where Greene takes responsibility for any hit to the head. Would the debate be the same if Greene had elected to bump Dangerfield? We have seen that a player can be suspended for bumping if they make contact with the head. Shouldn’t the elbow be the same when the head is involved?

There is also the debate of whether it is a football action or not. The biggest difference between Greene and Dangerfield’s actions is that in the case of the latter the arm was already up, but the former raised his forearm.

Greene lifting his arm is what caused the report and subsequent suspension, though Dangerfield slipping exaggerated the hit and made it look worse.

Joel Selwood on Josh Kelly
Selwood takes the ball while standing, his forearm is raised and he hits Kelly. A free kick was awarded. Kelly continued playing until the free kick was paid, and he didn’t leave the ground like Dangerfield.

It should have been a week.

Verdict: Nothing to answer for.

Did Kelly staying on the ground play a part in Selwood not being cited? Should it have? No. If Greene got two weeks before being downgraded to a week, then Selwood deserved one week. He had other options. He could have stayed low or turned his body, as Greene could have. The injury factor should only come into play after the decision has been made to suspend a player.

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Dustin Martin on Adam Kennedy
The ball is about to be kicked back into play after a behind. Dusty was running across the top of the 50-metre line and elbowed Kennedy in the head. A goal was then scored from the resulting free kick.

Verdict: two weeks.

It should have been a minimum of three weeks.

The behind-the-play aspect needs to be treated more harshly, Personally, if the incident is off the ball, the suspension should be judged more harshly than an incident that occurs in play. It was about 50 metres away from the ball at about the 50-metre line before the ball was kicked back into play, therefore not even in play.

The fact the Tigers appealed and had it downgraded to one week I still find troubling. It would be interesting to see what the verdict would have been in the current environment about the head.

David Astbury on Lachie Plowman
Astbury had just received a free kick and Plowman was a little slow to release, so Astbury threw his arm back aimed towards Plowman’s head.

Verdict: $2000 fine.

It should have been two weeks.

Astbury’s showed more intent than Dangerfield or Greene. He had just received the free kick, so play had stopped – it’s worse given the whistle can be easily heard and the umpire is not that far from Astbury.

What else would Astbury have expected to be there? What was the reason for throwing his elbow back? He clearly intended to hurt Plowman, otherwise why throw the elbow back in the first place? He could have easily just pushed back using his whole body.

He should have received at least two weeks. The suspension should have been based on the intent of the action, which was to hurt, not on the outcome.

Lance Franklin on Luke Ryan
This was very similar to Astbury’s elbow on Plowman but more aggressive. The tribunal considered that he was being dragged to the ground, which may have impacted the force of the elbow. However, the counterargument is Buddy knew Ryan was there and still threw the elbow.

Verdict: one-match suspension, then downgraded to $3000.

It should have been two weeks.

Joe Daniher on Dane Rampe
Daniher had just been awarded the mark. Rampe was still holding Daniher after the mark was awarded. Daniher then swung the elbow back while trying to turn his body. Again – like Astbury, like Buddy – he knew Rampe was there.

Verdict: $2000 fine.

It should have been two weeks.

How to fix the inconsistency

For each of the above incidents contact was made with part of the arm to the head of an opponent but with differing outcomes at the tribunal. No wonder people are confused. The judging of an incident considers the following matters.

1. Was contact intentional or careless?
Careless action would be in the motion of playing the game – for example, punching the ball (Dangerfield) or collecting a loose ground ball (Greene, Selwood et cetera) – or it occurs because of a proper tackle, though not the tackle on Mitch Duncan

Intentional actions are those where the player knows what he is doing and are not football actions. Examples here are throwing an elbow backwards (Astbury, Buddy et cetera), the action not occurring in play (Martin) or play when play has been stopped by the umpire (Astbury). Sling tackles and pushing a player over the boundary line towards the fence are also included.

Toby Greene of the Giants arrives before his AFL tribunal hearing at AFL House on September 09, 2019 in Melbourne, Australia. (Photo by Michael Willson/AFL Photos via Getty Images)

2. Was the impact severe, high, medium or low?
This should only come into play after the incident has been judged as worthy of a suspension, not before. It causes too many issues if it is involved in deciding a player has something to answer for. It would mean the player is suspended due to the action rather than the outcome if this change were made.

Anything to the head should be a suspension, so remove low impact. From the above incidents, most would be classed as medium, though off-the-ball incidents should be judged as high at a minimum.

3. Was the contact with head, groin or body?
Again, the action needs to be addressed, not where the contact was made. The point of contact should be irrelevant; it should be about the intention of the action. Greene’s intention was to fend off Dangerfield by pushing his chest. It hit the throat because of Dangerfield slipping. The question needs to be asked: is it where it hits or what the action was?

If we judge on the action before worrying about the outcome – suspension, fine or nothing to answer for – then we are more likely to have consistency in suspensions. Greene would probably still get a week, but not more as Dangerfield.

Astbury, Buddy and co. show intent by throwing the elbow back. None was trying to handpass the ball and accidentally made contact with a player trying to tackle them. They knew exactly what they were doing at the time. Throwing the elbow back should be an automatic two weeks if the AFL is serious about ridding the game of such incidents. The impact zone is irrelevant; the result is only relevant after a guilty verdict has been made.

If we look at the first incident of the year – Astbury on Plowman – he should have received two weeks. It should have been judged as medium impact as no injury was suffered. and it should be judged only medium impact after he was found guilty. However, if Plowman needed to leave the field – even for a blood nose – then it should have been raised to three weeks, and had it caused a concussion, then it should have been a minimum of four weeks. If he had been suspended in Round 1, then would the other incidents have occurred?

Fines don’t work. The type of incident still crops us. Maybe because it is a paltry amount compared to their income. The only reason fines may work is if they are a minimum of ten per cent of their salary for their contract period. Maybe demerit points can be awarded for fines, and if you were to reach a certain value in a three-year period, you would be suspended for four weeks.

Remember the jumper punch? It was a frequent occurrence, then Tom Hawkins was suspended, and it appears to have stopped. At worst it is less frequent than it once was. It shows that player behaviour can be changed.

The current system asks about intention, severity and location before deciding whether or not a player is guilty of an offence and deciding on a penalty. My proposed system would ask whether the player is guilty first before considering intention and severity.

Remove inherent bias before making a judgement when seeing an incident on the field or seeing the replay. Make sure you look at the incident in real-time, not the slow-motion replay. The action needs to be seen in real-time to see what else could be done instead to avoid it.

The Crowd Says:

2021-09-10T10:36:48+00:00

Doctor Rotcod

Roar Rookie


What about Caleb Daniel on Andrew Gaff? Forearm to the head, drew blood, not even a whistle.

2021-09-10T06:09:34+00:00

dab

Roar Rookie


Can we implement the Hawkins ban, NOW? It would be sort of handy.

2021-09-10T06:03:41+00:00

Valentino

Roar Rookie


You should be the new MRO IMO :-)

2021-09-10T05:34:04+00:00

Mat P

Guest


It seems to be that the match review officer chooses to cite players who cause injury and not cite them if the targeted player continues to play. Unless you're Liam Ryan, who got a week for a bump on Jason Johannisen in Round 15, even though Johannisen played out the match, and played the following week.

2021-09-10T04:03:57+00:00

Windrince

Roar Rookie


he is good at that dab

2021-09-10T02:59:28+00:00

dab

Roar Rookie


Send the grandkids to Judo classes so they learn how to fall. Good move with/without football.

AUTHOR

2021-09-10T02:51:30+00:00

AJ73

Roar Rookie


Yes, the junior level is an important area. It is easier to teach the young players than when they are older and playing at the senior level. The tackle is an interesting one though, you can do a very good tackle and still hurt the player by accident (think Duncan). Any tackle can, unfortunately, go wrong - hitting heads, head hitting the ground. Sorry to hear the recommendation for your grandson, maybe he will get his chance in the future.

2021-09-10T02:46:13+00:00

dab

Roar Rookie


Agreed Chuck. Raise the elbow and it should be 4 weeks And yes it would thin out a few teams.

2021-09-10T02:43:22+00:00

Lukey Miller

Guest


First sort out head high contact at junior level - properly. The amount of sling tackles in junior games I watched this year has been disturbing. The very young umpires may award a free kick, but the problem just continues each week. Perhaps the tackler needs to spend a half game off, with no replacement. That way it becomes more of a coaching issue. The chronic overcrowding around the ball results in high contact and more incidents where heads clash. Last year and before was the same. I have advised my daughter to find a different winter sport for my very talented grandson, which pains me no end - he is a jet.

2021-09-10T02:43:19+00:00

dab

Roar Rookie


Off the ball incidents: multiply penalty by 2 Throat, neck and head punch/forearm: 3 weeks minimum Raised elbow regardless of contact: 4 weeks The Hawkins coathanger: 4 weeks The Hawkins elbow in the name of breaking a tackle: 4 weeks Deliberate kicking to anywhere: 8 weeks * Not picking on Hawkins but he provides some great examples

AUTHOR

2021-09-10T01:53:41+00:00

AJ73

Roar Rookie


Yes, agree about concussion. They are not fun to have as I stated. It is why I think Dangerfield was suspended in round 1. Did I agree with it or not isn't the question, it is as you said did he have another option. The problem that comes from the Dangerfield suspension, the MRO have set the bar in terms of what is accepted and the penalty. I did see the incident in the Wallabies game (Barrett on Koribiti?), my first thought was his foot didn't need to be where it was. I can sort of understand a knee when jumping but not a raised knee if that makes sense. The AFL needs to put a line in the sand (like Union) and say this incident is the standard by which all others will be judged.

AUTHOR

2021-09-10T01:43:06+00:00

AJ73

Roar Rookie


Agree 100%. I think that they could even go further and try to stop the niggle as it is often the reason something happens. There is no need to have a hand on someone when there is a ball up. Blocking I am OK with, but not the touching and holding.

2021-09-10T01:35:59+00:00

Pope Paul VII

Roar Rookie


That's a good point about the push. I agree Petracca's push was minimal (why would you push an opponent toward your team mate with the ball?). You are spot on about dangerous pushes being looked at.

2021-09-10T01:24:06+00:00

Kick to Kick

Roar Rookie


Good article. The game has to be hardline on head high play. Concussion is a serious and often permanent injury. My view is that both outcome and intent should be considered. Where carelessness or deliberate action did not by luck result in concussion, but could have, there has to be suspension. Where there is concussion the player causing the injury should be suspended if there was any other course of action that could reasonably have avoided the concussion. Policed seriously, concussions would drop quickly.. You are right that high elbows and hits off the ball should result in automatic suspension. Rugby Union is belatedly starting to get this right. In last Saturday’ test match an All Black was red carded. His boot studs hit the face of an opponent. It was arguably accidental. He was jumping to catch a ball and raised his leg high, studs perpendicular to the ground(Toby Greene style). Impact was quite low and the tackler largely ran into the already raised boot. But it should have been a send off. The New Zealand player had no need to raise a boot ( or knee) potentially into the face of any tackler while jumping to take the ball. Serious injury could have occurred. There was no mucking about with a Tribunal days later. He was off for the rest of the game.

AUTHOR

2021-09-10T00:33:34+00:00

AJ73

Roar Rookie


While I like your rankings each week, your disdain for anything Geelong or not Essendon is beneath you.

AUTHOR

2021-09-10T00:31:19+00:00

AJ73

Roar Rookie


Thanks - I forgot about Fritsch. Just looked at the video again, looks more deliberate than any of the others. Should have been 2 weeks regardless. Petracca looks barely to have contributed, however maybe the MRO should look at the action of Petracca as well in the future as he appears to have caused the issue they raised to get Fritsch off.

2021-09-10T00:29:52+00:00

PeteB

Roar Rookie


Off the ball or not in play incidents need to be treated far more harshly that’s for sure.

2021-09-10T00:01:01+00:00

Pope Paul VII

Roar Rookie


They just don't suspend people for striking anymore. They are desperate to clear up all those pesky deliberate elbows, forearms and shoulders least they cause some star to miss a Brownlow or GF. So insufficient contact and fines are the way to go. Even a clearly deliberate elbow is easily escaped as you say above. You missed this ludicrous appeal that got Fritsch off. Remembering that Fritsch puts his elbow straight up, not his hand to palm off. "Fritsch pleaded not guilty to the careless conduct aspect of the charge, with club lawyer Adrian Anderson arguing the high contact was caused by two aspects outside of the Melbourne forward's control. "The high contact was caused by Powell being pushed into him faster and lower than could be reasonably expected," Anderson said. "Powell is moving lower and lower as a result of the push*. "There was only 0.2* of a second between (Fritsch) gathering the ball and contact being made. Powell's hand also pushes Fritsch's forearm higher." The AFL Tribunal's jury agreed, saying Fritsch didn't breach his duty of care to the opposition player. So just blame the victim and she's apples. *0.2 of a second is not enough time to not elbow someone in the head. That is just ridiculous in the mighty game that the commentary laud as a 360 degree game of split second decisions. *I can't remember GWS defence but I thought they argued it wasn't Greene's fault that Dangerfield slipped lower. How is that different from the strike Fristch got away with. The only way to get consistency is if, like the bump, if you choose to elbow someone in the head or throat, then expect a week or two off regardless of outcome.

2021-09-09T23:58:43+00:00

Charlie Keegan

Roar Guru


Suspend Joel Sellwood and Tom Hawkins anytime they lead with the elbow regardless of the amount of damage they cause would be a good start.

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