November is nearly upon us. Growing up on the outskirts of London this is when the mud starts turning to frozen ground, the sky is nearly dark by the time you walk home from school. Drizzle and dreariness close in. The Stark words echo in your mind: Winter is coming.
Meanwhile, in Australia the days are getting longer, summer storms start to roll in, jumpers and jeans are thrown into the winter drawer not to be touched for five months or so. Sunscreen permeates the house each morning just as the sun does at 4am and the BBQ gets a clean down.
Two polar opposites.
One full of optimism one full of pessimism. This is how a lot of the commentary regarding England rugby feels at the moment and as the November internationals bear down upon us; where are England really at? Let’s look at the two viewpoints.
First the doomsayers, England have in effect come last in the Six Nations twice in the last four years.
The England staff are unsettled and the review last year was designed to absolve Eddie Jones.
He appears belligerent and refuses to pick form players. England’s negative kicking tactics not only turned fans off during the pandemic but are now being found out at international level. England are the Lions lite behind the eight ball with a captain that sounds as though he will explode every time he speaks to the referee.
The fact a country with the financial and playing resources of England finished fifth twice in the last four years shows how poorly managed they are. Sure they beat NZ in the semi-final but since then have gone nowhere. Eddie needs to go unless he turns it all around in November and the next Six Nations.
There is, however, room for an optimistic view.
Since the Rugby World Cup, England have the best Test win record only bettered by New Zealand by 1 per cent.
Players such as Marcus Smith, Ellis Genge, Sam Simmonds & Alex Dombrandt have developed so much since the last Six Nations.
Manu Tuilagi Tuilagi is fit. Eddie has a new set of coaches who are actually in the country now acclimatised. England won two of the last five tournaments they were in and came second in another two. During a COVID-affected tournament where England kept very strict COVID protocols such as only training together and then spending time in their rooms they lost three games.
| Country | W | L | D | Win % |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| New Zealand | 13 | 3 | 1 | 76% |
| England | 12 | 4 | – | 75% |
| France | 11 | 5 | – | 68% |
| Ireland | 11 | 5 | – | 68% |
| South Africa | 6 | 4 | – | 60% |
| Scotland | 7 | 7 | – | 50% |
| Australia | 7 | 6 | 3 | 43% |
| Wales | 7 | 9 | 1 | 41% |
| Argentina | 3 | 7 | 3 | 18% |
So where will enigmatic England end up? No team is ever as good as the media are saying and no team is ever as bad. Eddie Jones backed up this exact thinking with his quote:
“I think, particularly in England, there’s either really great things, or there’s a crisis – nothing in between. And generally rugby is about the bits in between,” he said.
In reality, England are at a pivot point in their journey to the 2023 World Cup, indeed last Six Nations I think they attempted to pivot to an attack minded gameplan that didn’t come off. There are really any number of ways this England team could play. If they need to be tight they can be. They definitely have the players to play Harlequin globe trotter rugby which brings us to the real enigma.
What will the gameplan be (Saracens or Harlequins)? Who gets the keys to Number 10? Can a Smith/ Farrell/ Tuilagi axis work? Or must Smith bid his time on the bench while Farrell runs the show?
This is why Eddie Jones is paid the big bucks, every person in The Roar community will have a different viewpoint but how can you say with any certainty what will get the best out of England?
For me the smart money is on a handsome win against Tonga with Marcus Smith at 10 to lead to a media barrage to have Smith start against Australia and South Africa.
Then two tight Test matches will be played, Australia will give a much better run for their money than we have been accustomed to and then I think England will exact revenge against a weary and somewhat depleted Springboks.
For mine a 2-1 or 3-0 series depending on who seizes the key moments.
If this happens the hype around Eddie will die down and where will England sit? Probably around the same place as before. If a 1-2 series result occurs expect the media to say the world is falling down but if both games are tight how far behind will England really be? England will sit where they always seem to sit, somewhere in between.
Perthstayer
Roar Rookie
There are a host of reasons some fans say England fans are arrogant. On occasion it is because they have met some idiots, but sadly there are idiots around the world. There are only 22 countries England/Britain has never invaded throughout the course of history. In the main these were victories, leaving behind anger and a desire for revenge. The presumption of guilt of these misdeeds manifests to this day, except in the form of an assumption of arrogance. The niggle with opposition fans is considered banter, yet the very same words passed with an English fan are immediately considered arrogance. In the last 10 years Australia has achieved a paltry 2 wins from 11 vs England. This has meant the sound of England fans singing in the stadium has left scars. Yet they are the same songs sung when England lose a match. England has a firey and opinionated media, but every country has one eyed journalists. When it comes to arrogance for some people England have to prove their innocence rather than be proven to be guilty.
Francisco Roldan
Roar Rookie
I arrived at # RWC2019 with my attention focused on Los Pumas and England. From England I was intrigued to learn how his "Kick & Catch" strategy that Eddie Jones had matured would play out. To my surprise, it was very effective, but it failed against the defensive genius of the Bocks. While I don't closely follow what is going on in the English premiership, the calls made by Jones show a tendency towards an expansive and controlled attacking game. In a few more days, we will see what happens with this squad.
Pom in exile
Roar Rookie
Ok, so a few things. You know Carlos well enough to speak for him do you? I have witnessed Carlos jumping into every available England/English pile on on the Roar for years and years, he literally doesn’t miss an opportunity to express his hatred for the English and England, but when called out on it, he says that it’s just English rugby and English rugby fans that he ‘despises’. It never ceases to amaze me that the way the English are talked about on the Roar is actively encouraged by the Roar itself. It’s absolutely ok to express how much you despise the English it seems, although if it was said about any other nations people it would be considered poor form or ‘problematic’ and would be very far from ok. You bring up slavery, which as everybody would agree these days is abhorrent. England or more specifically the British didn’t invent slavery, it has existed as far back as we know and sadly still exists in certain parts of the world. Whilst the Brits didn’t invent slavery, they certainly were one of the first nations to acknowledge its evil and work towards abolishing it. In relation to the song ‘Swing Low’, when it was first sung by rugby fans in England is a matter of contention, but many believe it was in honour of Martin ‘Chariots’ Offiah, most people would have been ignorant to its origins and many still are. It wasn’t sung to celebrate slavery or England it was sung due to a play on words, which the English have always been suckers for and it is sung now by English rugby fans in support of their team, nothing more and nothing less really. Last year due to the genesis of the Black Lives Matter movement there was a debate had about the singing of the song and the upshot was that no one felt it should be banned but that fans should be educated to understand what it was they were actually singing about, seems reasonable? You seem to have decided that English fans have always acted and continue to do so with malevolent intent in regards to the song, I would suggest that you are projecting and it perhaps says more about you than the English.
potsie
Guest
To be fair to him, his views seem to be based primarily on a former slaving nation adopting a song about slavery as a celebration of their country and team. Really, who does that?
Pom in exile
Roar Rookie
You must be the unluckiest bloke to have ever been to Twickenham. I’ve been countless times and never seen anything between rival fans to suggest that it’s a hostile place for visiting fans, quite the opposite in fact.
adastra32
Roar Rookie
Good article Sinck. Just one comment - on the evidence of Saracens' developing play this season, the dour, kick-it-away-at-all-costs game is not being followed. They have racked up 127 points in the last two games! Admittedly, Bath and Wasps are suffering for different reasons at the moment, but the way Saracens played is in line with the new, more adventurous philosophy. Btw I'm not partisan.
egbert
Guest
Yes it is kind of arrogant to take off a runners-up medal as it disrespected the tournament. Imagine if Olympic athletes did that (and I'm aware one boxer did do that in Tokyo - and was pilloried for it). Nice article though, I suspect England will win 3/3 this autumn, which will mask a few things.
FunBus
Roar Rookie
Given what I’ve been told by a number of England fans about their experiences in Eden Park, Sydney and Brisbane, I know where I’d feel safer taking my kids if I was an ‘away’ fan.
FatOldHalfback
Roar Rookie
FunBus: I could of given 1/2 dozen more examples including on the tube on the way home Twickenham, it was sad and a very different vibe to travelling home on the train after an ABs v Wallabies game
FunBus
Roar Rookie
It sounds to me like you’ve had one unpleasant experience with a handful of d.heads in a bar. I would suggest it’s infinitely better to be an ‘away’ fan in Twickenham than English in Cardiff, Edinburgh, Sydney, Auckland, Jo’burg or Buenos Aires.
FunBus
Roar Rookie
I’m warming up PiE. :happy:
Derek Murray
Roar Rookie
His role at Leinster seems ideal though, not HC
Derek Murray
Roar Rookie
I’d have preferred a structure like SA in 2007 with Lancaster in charge and Jones supporting. You may be right about alternative powerful voices though so maybe not
ozziedude
Roar Rookie
wouldve been gd to see Lancaster at the reds a few years ago to see what he couldve done
ozziedude
Roar Rookie
I think rugby is all the better when theres a strong England team. Its a bit like having a strong Aussie team in the SH. Makes beating Eng all the more special, along with all the hype they generate.. A shame we missed Kefu in that 03 tournament and threw in Lyons in to do a mans job. Wouldve been Eddies finest hour.
FatOldHalfback
Roar Rookie
Englishbob -- I've had a few very unpleasant experiences with English rugby fans. Just one example: I was in Hong Kong and went to a bar to watch a Bled, there was a kiwi in a black jersey and he and I sat down together to drink beer and watch the game but there were also 4 or 5 English fans that kept chanting En-ger-land even though they weren't playing, they kept trying to block our view of the screen, yelling racist remarks about various players etc I ended up covered in beer and spittle, this isn't my only bad experience -- I now cheer whoever is playing England
stillmissit
Roar Guru
Just looked it up PIE and I seem to remember it. Never liked the little weasel regardless of his being one of our longest-serving PM's and I am right-wing in my political thinking.
Pom in exile
Roar Rookie
Farrell did play at 10 last week for Saracens when they scored 10 trys away from home, but I take your point.
Pom in exile
Roar Rookie
This is wide open for FunBus to remind you guys about how John Howard distributed the winners medals at the 2003 RWC…I couldn’t possibly comment. :happy:
Carlos the Argie
Roar Guru
@Pom in exile, Oh no, you don’t understand. I don’t despise England as a country. I despise English rugby and it’s fans. I may change my mind the day they stop singing Swing Low. One of my favorite or most admired people is Maggie Thatcher.