Former top referee Jonathan Kaplan joined The Roar Rugby Podcast hosts Harry Jones and Brett McKay for an intriguing look into his career, the biggest players of his era and the current state of the game.
Kaplan has a long memory and also has a long spreadsheet. He has, for over 700 matches (425 at first class level), recorded the place, the teams, the penalty count, cards, his own assessment score, and colour-coded and micro-columned all this data.
Beyond the data there is an obvious love of the game. He relishes the memories, and now, as head of MLR’s referees and based in Toronto, he is training and assessing and helping a new generation of North American whistleblowers grow into the game.
Kaplan told The Roar likes a ref to have the courage to let players play.
“Bledisloe Cup games were the best type of game to referee,” he said. “I enjoyed a quicker game and then quickening it up.”
Kaplan holds the record for officiating Bledisloes.
“The skill level was high, the conditions and conditioning was great, the players knew each other, coaches knew what each other would do. In my time, Australia was very competitive.”
He counts one of his greatest Test experiences his seventh Bledisloe Test at the Cake Tin in 2001 when John Eales kicked the last minute matchwinner to keep Australia number one.
He was a fan of David Pocock. “He was hard on the ball, and I never discouraged that, and it was a tactic that served him and all the teams he played in well. He was an outstanding leader and a top class bloke,” said Kaplan.
He remembered reffing a match in Christchurch, and “not pushing all the right buttons,” but recalled Pocock coming over and shaking his hand. “He had this thing. Every single game, he would shake the referee’s hand. He could detach himself from emotion.”
Richie McCaw was another who left an impression.
“He pushed the boundaries until he got away with it. With me, I don’t believe he pushed beyond the boundaries.”
Kaplan also spoke about his dealings with fans, and singled out Canberra as a hostile stadium. “They were feral,” he laughed. However, he points to his own strong self-image as why he did not take it personally.
He likes a challenge, which refereeing always provides.
“I think that’s how you grow. You take on a task. You might think you are good in the beginning. I was a bit cocky at the start. But I realised I had to grow. Super Rugby allowed me to grow. I came over to Australasia and learned a new context. Everywhere you go there are nuances.
“There are individuals with more ice in their veins. You can train people as much as you want on zoom, but until you get out there and are getting abused, and keep your head about you, and go from micro task to micro task, in order to get the big picture of the game right, that takes a special type of character. The certification and training does not necessarily get you over the line.”
Kaplan also spoke on the use of TMO, how refs can be more open post-match and his thoughts on head contact protocols – a burning issue in the game.
You can stream the chat with Jonathan Kaplan in the player below, or on your podcast app of choice.
alex kearns
Guest
I remember he needed a police escort after the 2000 bledisloe.
scrum
Roar Rookie
I listened- have my doubts
Harry Jones
Expert
Jonathan explained how it worked in the Currie Cup. Good idea.
jeznez
Roar Guru
First Knuckles Connolly and now Kaplan. Is it just people with names starting with K calling out the Brumbies fans?
Dean
Roar Rookie
I have found the loud minority there with the negative and incessant booing, bagging, swearing at decisions they don't like to be a poor look for our game and for the majority of good Brumbies supporters. I have been there supporting the Brumbies against other teams and also supporting my team, the Reds, at the ground. There are normally 2 constants, the quality of the Brumbies Rugby and the very loud and somewhat poor display of "support" by a highly "vocal" minority in the crowd.
MonkeyBoy
Roar Rookie
Talking to recent Super Refs before Covid began, they rated the feral fans: Worst in New Zealand Christchurch, Worst in Australia Canberra Worst in Southern Hemisphere Johannesburg
Harry Jones
Expert
All of life is politics. Put a man and a woman in an elevator and you have politics.
Tim J
Roar Rookie
It is good to get a range of ideas, some outside of the box DA.
scrum
Roar Rookie
Not sure how post match interviews with the Ref would work out. I see how many think good idea. The NRL went down a similar line , the head of Refs giving more detailed responses and judgement on particular decisions, and achieved very little and in reality only increased focus on the officiating. Part of the problem is there is a significant number of fans who do not want to be educated, who can only see things in terms of their teams. And the media constantly hyping up decisions regardless of the actual incident. The classic is calling 50/50 calls controversial. By their very nature 50/50:calls cannot be controversial in that the Ref has to decide one way or other. So regardless of which way he decides it’s controversial. Well no it’s not. And from posters on this website there are many who have limited understanding of the Referee role and some who are basically Referee bashers, these people are impossible to reason with and are not interested in a logical debate.
Bobby
Roar Rookie
Reckon I have been to most major rugby fields across Australia and even NZ. That Canberra crowd can be "feral" and very vocal in their dislleasure. Love passionate fans.
adamv
Roar Rookie
I don't know about concrete cancer, but the main stadium was built in 1976 for the Pan Pacs in 77. I'll let you do the sums. As for Kaplan complaining about the fans being feral? I remember a scrum half (who happens to have his name on one of the stadiums) having a running discussion with Kaplan all night, to the point where the scrum half fired a bullet pass at Kaplan because Kaplan was in the way!
Double Agent
Guest
I've long thought we should get rid of conversions. Just make all tries 7 points. Saves time and makes all tries equal.
Double Agent
Guest
" the kind of progressive, thinking type we need to move forward." I thought only politicians used this kind of newspeak!! :laughing:
Harry Jones
Expert
Yes, I prefer scrum dominance thoroughly milked!
Dean
Roar Rookie
Thanks Harry, really enjoyed the latest podcast with JK. Must say I’m not a fan of the MLR Scrum rule they have, 1 reset.
Harry Jones
Expert
We are thrilled to have a rugby mind like Jonathan Kaplan aligned with us for our podcast and our site. He has lived and breathed rugby for so many decades, retained his love of the game, and is the kind of progressive, thinking type we need to move forward. Plus, he's bloody good chat! No airs. No "don't you know who I am." Just great convo, generous with his time, and interesting as hell.
Harry Jones
Expert
Dean, we haven't forgotten your request to depth chart the Aussie loosies. Gobs of talent at 8. Plenty at 7. Maybe a bit of a puzzler at 6 if things go wrong. Stay tuned, mate!
mused6
Roar Rookie
Thought he was great when he pinged Craig Dowd in the famous Wellington Bledisloe. But… then he was allocated a match in 2012, a finals game Reds v Sharks at Suncorp. Can’t help but think he gave his home town team a leg up in that match. Reds lost. I’ve never seen a ref get that much abuse and booed off the field at games end. Thoroughly deserved too. Well done on getting your Sharks through that year, Mr Kaplan.
Charlie Mackay
Guest
Population of Canberra is nearer to 500k actually... was at about 465k in 2021.
Tim J
Roar Rookie
I can just see him and McCaw sitting down after a game having a good laugh, both had big respect towards each other. Richie said after he retired that Kaplan was a Ref that he respected, because he knew without doubt how far he could push the boundaries without going too far. This was about mutual respect and acknowledging each other for being at the top of their game.