Rugby Australia CEO Phil Waugh says he wants a third-tier rugby competition up and running next year with stakeholder discussions around how it will look happening “in the next couple of weeks”.
Waugh, speaking on The Roar Rugby Podcast, acknowledged getting more games into elite players was needed to raise the standard of rugby in Australia.
There are several different views on how a third tier should look – and Western Force’s Tony Lewis told the Sydney Morning Herald: “In a perfect model, you’d want two teams out of Queensland [and] three teams out of NSW. Then you’ve got one for the Brumbies, one for the Rebels, one from the Force. That’s an eight-team comp and that’s probably the perfect model if you think that 70 per cent of players really come from two states [NSW and Queensland].”
The model proposed by Lewis is a close reflection to what National Rugby Championship looked like in 2017, where nine sides, including three from NSW as well as the Fiji Drua, competed.
Western Force CEO Tony Lewis wants a NRC-style competition to return in Australian rugby. (Photo by Jason McCawley/Getty Images)
Waugh, however, wants the teams to have a closer connection with club rugby.
“Is it a club competition? Is it something whereby we’re bringing clubs together and creating regions? I think we need to really work that solution out because if you’re not playing Super Rugby you need to be playing good quality rugby,” said Waugh.
“At the moment, clearly we’re not playing enough games across the system. Then it’s around the other – geography is not easy as we know because we’re one of the largest countries and getting from Perth to Sydney or Sydney to Perth is a long way.
“We need to nut that out in the next few weeks because time is getting away from us. The World Cup in 2027 and the Lions in 2025 sounds like a long way away. But that’s just around the corner in terms of preparation, and you need to move quickly.
“My view is that goes probably go that goes back to the connecting piece around connecting with community. I believe across our club system the rugby clubs can be the beating heart of communities, and in some instances, it’s done really well.
“I don’t think we need to necessarily fabricate teams to bring it into a national competition, it’s more around how do we ensure that we leverage that level of tribalism and get the appropriate competition.
“If I go back to where Australia’s rugby has been really strong it is when we’ve been connecting our professional players, and our Wallabies, back into the community game, and some of our club games are a really good high quality games of rugby.
“Sometimes we’re a little bit hard on ourselves around the quality that we have in clubs, and whether that’s John Dent Cup, Shute Shield, Hospital Cup, some of those games are genuinely competitive and high quality games and sometimes we criticise ourselves a little bit more than we should around the quality of our club system.”
Waugh said Australian rugby suffered from a dilution of talent as players came from school ranks to consider professional sport, and that was having a competitive impact.
“If you’re not getting into a team, quickly enough, then other options to either go across to league or go overseas come into the players’ minds,” he said.
“We’ve definitely got to do a better job in the pathways. That’s what sets us up. And, and we know now that securing players that are far younger age than what we have had to historically is really important.
(Photo by Daniel Pockett/Getty Images for Rugby Australia)
“That dilution of talent from Australian 20s through to the Super Rugby teams, that’s what we need to do a lot of work on it.
“When you put your best 23 players, or squad of 30 players together at that level, we’re really competitive. I think where we probably less competitive is actually then if you go the next 30 and the next 30 down isn’t the same as what we’re seeing in Ireland, or in France, or in New Zealand.
“And then we filter out into the five professional teams at Super Rugby level and we just need to make sure that we’ve got the depth coming through because that’s where we’ve been found out a little bit at Super Rugby level.”
He said the problem for Australian teams to work on jointly is “if you’re not in the 23 how do we get more game time across players who aren’t playing?
“You might compare Richie Mo’unga versus Carter Gordon when they played their first Test match and how many good quality top grade games they’d played before they got out onto the big stage,” he said.
“It has to be on the radar. But we need to be ambitious. We’re talking about this golden decade. Obviously, I’m really excited about the golden decade. But when you think golden decade, you think a long time. But we haven’t got a long time. It’s less than two years now until we play the Lions. And we can see what’s going on in the northern hemisphere with their development talent coming through, then the World Cup is a little over four years away in Australia.”
Phil Waugh says Australian rugby can benefit from their Super Rugby sides touring other regions of the world in the off-season. (Photo by Sydney Seshibedi/Gallo Images)
Podcast host Brett McKay suggested that having the five states playing each other after Super Rugby might be the “cheapest, easiest and most effective” fix.
“It could be, but my broader stepping back is that actually the connection with the community is so important,”countered Waugh.
“So connecting with clubs, putting players into the clubs and into the community is also really important. We do have systems and club systems across the country, that if we put our best athletes into them can be a really competitive competition.
“What you’re suggesting may be the answer. But then you’ve got to ensure that we’re connecting with the community and it’s relevant and meaningful to our supporter base.”
Noting the need to play more, Australia’s Super Rugby sides have returned to touring other nations.
It is something that previously occurred, with Queensland touring Europe and NSW Argentina.
As recently as 2013, Michael Cheika’s Waratahs toured Argentina. Two years later, his side won the Super Rugby competition.
The Western Force will play the Cheetahs from South Africa in home and away fixtures this spring, while the Brumbies and Reds will tour Japan.
Waugh said one of the benefits of touring meant Australia’s talent would get exposure to other playing styles, particularly with South Africa no longer involved in Super Rugby since COVID-19 changed the tournament.
andrewM
Roar Rookie
I just noticed that ironically the award for the Best Player in the NRC final was awarded the Phil Waugh Medal. Even more so that the last winner was awarded to a player from a team that under Phil's vision of Australian Rugby Utopia would not exist. I like to think the Australian Rugby Shield up til 2008 is an example of what can be done without the support of the Sydney clubs. Sure, this comp is purely amateur but the support for each of the teams transgressed local club allegiances. Even in the NRC, Perth Spirit support was strong and crowds of 2-3,000 people were common. I'm just not getting this 'You can't just create this tribalism to make it work' vibe or that the comp will be financially unviable. As for Sydney teams..If they don't want to be part of the solution, then leave them to their own devices and let them play with themselves. Maybe those players there who aren't getting the game time they'd like will make a move to somewhere where they can. It certainly happened in Perth before the Force was axed in 2017.
andrewM
Roar Rookie
I don't know if you've heard of the Australian Rugby Shield Olly, but before the Force was a thing, the rivalary between Perth Gold, NSW Country, Qld Country and the ACT in this comp was pretty intense and the comp was well supported. This was created from nothing, and not only that gave Adelaide, Melbourne and even Darwin and Tasmanian players some exposure. Finally someone had the wisdom last year to bring it back, but not in the home and away format of previous years
Olly
Roar Rookie
100% agree Bourkos. SR particularly with Japan is where it is at.
Olly
Roar Rookie
Mate, they can't create a national professional comp from nothing..it will never be financially viable. The capital cost is enormous. They can't create a comp that will immediately touch the entire fan base. This is impossible and completely unrealistic. They can only use the infrastructure in place to try and make something financially viable that can grow over time. Just look at league, created from the Sydney club league comp. You have to start somewhere and it is clear as day that creating teams from nothing is not financially viable.
Olly
Roar Rookie
But why try and develop tribalism when you atleast have it in clubs. Way cheaper to work with what you have then start from nothing. Rugby does not have the money to do this.
Olly
Roar Rookie
Cheaper to use the wealthier clubs and there existing facilities.
Olly
Roar Rookie
Wave your wand and create teams from nothing….that has worked…..One day you will get it. This third tier is being designed solely for the purpose of catching school leavers top talent before they join league and in the short term attract them back before our RWC. This is purely an early professional pathway. That is it. Also you do realise taking club teams into professional teams is common practice.
carnivean
Roar Rookie
"You are blinded by your hatred of Randwick". I chose an example at random. I don't support any Shute Shield club. It's a reflection on how you view the world that's in play here. "First players raided". You assume that this 3rd tier that keeps getting canned for lack of money is going to somehow be raiding other codes for talent? I should actually mock up an ad for a bridge... If you want teams to act the professional way that you've tried to outline then you need to ensure that there is a clear separation for the existing clubs. That's not what is on the table. You're going to get more of the same insular, protectionist nonsense that the elite clubs have dished out for ages. You outline very clearly all the reasons that we need to have a proper 3rd tier across your posts but have somehow failed to see the wood for the trees. The elite clubs want none of your vision. Their words and actions have always shown you this.
Olly
Roar Rookie
You are blinded by your hatred of Randwick. First players raided will be Qld under 20s League players lost from Union, current super teams development squads, then the best club players from across the country as they rush to secure talent. Yes they will initially mostly get local based players as they have a competitive advantage in this market and it makes sense. Yes none selected pro players will come down to get more game time etc, just like the current club teams that get SR and Wallabies level players coming down which is also heavily advantageous to a select few teams....Amateur club rugby screams for more money for grass roots rugby.....then get out of the way and let more money generating competitions be created for better professional pathways for school leavers..this comp is all about top school talent staying in rugby, not aging club players. These pro teams will have a registered roster of professional players, salary caps and can only play contracted players which has a cost that impacts the salary cap. This amateur club level thinking is what kills rugby. Club land needs to wake up and realise they are best position as a feeder system to lower level professional rugby. Not this ridiculous mix of good and absolutely rubbish rugby club land is currently throwing up..Club rugby has failed to secure top young talent. More professional pathways are needed and we have tried this ridiculous creating teams twice with the same result....do we need to waste more money failing a third time creating teams like....the stingrays and other such rediculus teams that none cares about...
carnivean
Roar Rookie
I have a bridge to sell you. The first people to get picked into Randwick 3rd tier are going to be Randwick club players. Don't get selected into the 3rd tier team for this week? Then play Shute Shield this weekend, for Randwick of course. This proposal kills other clubs.
Olly
Roar Rookie
No it won't. The 3rd tier professional team is a professional team. They don't care where you come from as they just want the best players period and the professional teams are competing against the other professionals teams for talent. These teams will recruit from all teams across all clubs to get the best talent. This is how professional sport works. If they can get someone else to develop talent then that is an even better ROI. The club teams will be left with club level players and the club teams that have the better player development will get the best club players looking to capitalise on this. Clubs with the best coaches will get the best players.
carnivean
Roar Rookie
You've mis-read what is being said there, so I'll be clear: If you take the Shute Shield which currently has 12 teams in it and say that 3 of those teams will be chosen to also play in the 3rd tier comp then you're choosing which 3 of those clubs all the good players head to and the other 9 get shafted. No player that currently plays for Eastern Suburbs that fancies themselves a chance of competing in the 3rd tier and maybe progressing from there will stay at Eastern Suburbs if Randwick are in the 3 chosen clubs. Likewise no one playing for Manly would stay at Manly if Warringah were in the 3 chosen clubs. This will ruin any chance of any team outside those 3 ever winning the Shute Shield again. Likewise with the Hospital Cup and their chosen teams. This proposal kills the other clubs.
Olly
Roar Rookie
"Tying it to existing clubs is picking which clubs get all the good players"....Well yes. This is the point of a third tier professional competition. That is exactly what we are trying to make.
carnivean
Roar Rookie
Unless your club isn't on Waugh's friends list, in which case you get to watch them play for some other club or not at the 3rd tier level. Tying it to existing clubs is picking which clubs get all the good players as they'll want to be at a pathway club, with better money and facilities. Tying it to existing clubs is also tying it to existing rivalries. How many people living outside Randwick or Warringah are going to support those clubs if they represent NSW in this 3rd tier comp? Traditional opponents sure aren't going to be attending their games, except perhaps in hopes they get smashed by the visiting team.
carnivean
Roar Rookie
That was part of at least of the previous attempts but the clubs in Sydney didn't like it because they had to work together and weren't able to put their egos aside, so they actively worked against the whole thing. How do you currently work out which Super Rugby team to follow given the lack of connection to a club? The other point worth considering is balance. Part of the reason that QLD's NRC approach was so good was that they balanced their 2 teams. If you have it aligned to clubs then you might see the top 4 props on the same 3rd tier team, with 5-8 on the other team. QLD split their players into fairly evenly matched squads and ensured that their developing talent was given the opportunities rather than waiting on the pine. 2 in QLD and 3 in NSW allows you have them all playing. There's a hybrid option that uses club connections but also tries for balance that should be in the mix.
Zero_Cool
Roar Rookie
The Brumbies at one point had 17 players in the Wallabies squad. On the flip side of the Reds, a few of those squads had fewer than 5—even like 1 or 2. Also, you'd ideally have a Super Rugby Team having 2 or 3 teams under them.
The Ferret
Roar Rookie
Wilken got injured playing for Brothers in QLD...
Ken Catchpole's Other Leg
Roar Guru
Agree with you on FIFO Ferret. Too much flying, not enough playing. Grow where you’re planted., then arrange catchment boundaries to suit the rugby demographics, so that teams are competitive. For example a team might need a catchment the size of Victoria to be competitive with one from Western Sydney, for instance.
Train Without A Station
Roar Guru
Some are. Some aren’t. Pone played Dewar earlier in the year for example.
East Coast Aces
Roar Rookie
Can we just start by making Super Rugby a full home and away competition. That will definitely get more professional games into guys like Carter Gordon before they become wallabies. No doubt broadcasters like Stan will prefer that. And that will give more home games to members. Making it much more attractive for fans to sign up. You will save a heap of money on things like uniforms, branding advertising etc. Possibly cheaper on player fees etc.