Yesterday’s news of a bid for a new professional football side to be based in South Sydney was greeted by a reaction far more heated than the usual coverage of a new A-League bid.
That, of course, was unsurprising. The bid is, after all, being fronted by two of Australia’s best-known football pundits – Les Murray and Craig Foster – and backed by Chinese property giant JiaYuan group.
But when talking to Foster about Southern’s expansion bid, what’s clear is this is very much a plan still in its infancy.
“I believe the group’s been talking since early December, so it’s been about three months now in development,” Foster says.
Foster himself has only been on board as the bid’s head of football for around a month.
But even in this early stage of the bid, it’s apparent there are genuine concerns around Southern’s potential fan-base. The bid is split across three different associations – Sutherland, St George and South Coast – and the region already provides a significant portion of Sydney FC’s membership.
Despite that, and the fact that Sydney already has two A-League teams, Foster is adamant there is room for another in the city’s south.
“No one can seriously argue that Sydney can or should only sustain two professional clubs. It’s just plainly ridiculous.
“Let’s say, for argument’s sake, that 10 to 15 percent of the membership base for Sydney FC comes from this region. That leaves a tremendously high number of participants and the general community who aren’t engaged.
“I ask the opposite question; not what it’s going to do to Sydney FC, I ask how is it that the game cannot take advantage of this huge participant base?
“Those who have chosen Sydney FC will, we hope, stay with Sydney FC throughout their life. That’s the passion and identification that people have with a football club. And that’s fantastic. But this region needs further representation in the professional game. It’s going to bring everyone up and benefit every club, the league and the game in general.”
It’s a glass-half-full approach for sure, but one Foster sees mirrored in the inception of Western Sydney.
“When the Wanderers came in, it was the extra additional competition and people having to choose sides that actually saw Sydney FC memberships rise.
“If you remember, people were very concerned about it at that time, as ridiculous as that is, so this is very much the same.”
It’s not just Sydney FC that will be impacted by Southern.
If it hasn’t dashed their dreams completely, the bid has, at the very least, cast doubt over the Wollongong Wolves’ A-League aspirations. And with it comes concern the Illawarra community won’t fully support Southern as a result.
Again, the positive, glass-half-full approach is evident from Foster.
“Some people see issues or challenges, I just see an opportunity for the game to maximise our potential in the professional game by a pathway for kids in clubs and in communities throughout this whole footprint.”
The Wolves have said they’re still eyeing off an A-League bid, but is it really viable for the Illawarra to play host to two professional sides?
“That’s a matter for the people who are going to be running the league at that time.”
With or without the Wolves in the picture, and even with the Sydney FC fans in the area, Southern has an approach to gaining a following that, in theory at least, stacks up well; a conversion of football’s grassroots participants into a community supporting the professional side.
While it’s a sound idea, particularly given the strength of grassroots football in south Sydney, pulling that off is a different matter entirely.
It’s been one of the A-League’s greatest head-scratchers; no club-based sport in Australia has as many participants as football, yet it languishes well behind the AFL, NRL and cricket in the national sporting spectrum.
“Everyone has always looked at the game and gone ‘Wow, we’ve got all of these people playing, how do you convert them into participants?’” Foster says.
“Well, the way to do it is to ensure that the club is designed with them in mind, for them, and there’s a pathway for all of the players in a particular region. So that’s why this club has actually started from the association base. Three associations with an MOU to say we’re on board and everything is going to be done together.
“It’s a really powerful statement about what a future club model looks like.
“In the next 20 years, it is the professional game in this country that is going to deliver the promised land. That has to come through our participant base.”
This approach to the bid is evident the longer Foster talks. The professional side will be created with strong ties to the existing amateur clubs, there’s support for the NPL aspirations of region’s sides, and a desire to increase and improve the football infrastructure in the area to the extent of creating a purpose-built stadium in the region.
There’s as much a lack of a concrete, specific plan for that stadium as there is actual concrete being poured into the ground at the moment. But with a consortium from the bid headed to America in the near future to learn from MLS clubs, Foster is certainly making the right noises.
“What I’ve said to the ownership group from the lessons of the MLS is that the leasing costs for private or government-owned stadia are debilitative to many professional clubs across many different sports, but particularly to ours.
“Boutique high-atmosphere, purpose-built football stadia are a critical factor in any really successful competition.
“The evolution of the MLS has, in its second decade, demonstrated that in order to become a license-holder within the MLS now, a requirement is to have a commitment towards a purpose-built stadium.
“Why is that? It’s because of community integration, fan experience and the economic model of building financially strong clubs.
“We’re still talking about sustainability and viability. We need to reorient the discussion to financial strength; how do we become incredibly strong? It’s through owning our own facilities.”
Where that community and financial approach overlaps is the JiaYuan Group.
As the sole backer of Southern, the property group has pledged a $12 million bank guarantee. And while they’re not a familiar name to Australian football fans – although they’re fast becoming one – Foster has no issues with the group.
“It was important that they demonstrated their long-term commitment both to us, as the football lover, when they approached us to be involved, and by giving a very large financial guarantee to the FFA and they’ve certainly done that.
“As one of China’s largest property development groups, they have a foundation in China and they’re certainly talking about one here. And quite a number of facilities and sporting venues have been built in China as part of their community contribution. So they’re constantly talking about contributing to the Australian community.”
What’s clear is Southern is an obvious frontrunner for one of the next two professional licenses. Couple the financial clout of JiaYuan, the promise of a new stadium and a commitment to engaging the grassroots in a new club, package it all behind the well-known faces of Murray and Foster, and it’s nigh on impossible to imagine the FFA saying “no.”
Despite that, the aforementioned issues remain. Will the bid simply splinter and fragment existing football fans in the region? Will Wollongong’s football community dismiss Southern for its Sydney roots?
Say what you will about Foster – and plenty has been said – you can’t deny the man’s passion for football, nor his desire to see the sport thrive in Australia. Now with a major role in the creation of this new team, he has the chance to prove that his footballing ideals are as viable on the field and in the community as they are on TV.
SonOfLordy
Guest
This is just delusional, short-term thinking. Craig Foster and Les Murray are influential and might succeed in getting a "South Sydney" team in the A-League, but then what? To me it merely cannibalises the existing Sydney teams -- with both of them already struggling for crowds outside of the derbies. The definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, and this seems to be what is happening with Australian soccer.
Caltex & SBS support Australian Football
Guest
Craig Foster and Les Murray explain: https://soundcloud.com/sbstheworldgame/a-league-podcast-expansion-special-les-murray-craig-foster-explain-their-sydney-bid
Midfielder
Guest
JB You should write a book ... honestly your knowledge of that time is priceless and will be lost soon...
Bfc
Guest
Hasn't the NSW north rivers/north coast (Coffs Harbour area...) got a massive number of registered football players? Always wondered why the GCU never tried to engage those fans and perhaps play some 'home games' at Coffs..though under Clive P the GCU were pretty dysfunctional...
Aethelbert
Guest
The percentage quoted only applies to junior members. 15% of Sydney FC's Junior Members are from Sutherland.
Aethelbert
Guest
But Sydney FC and even WSW do have a hold in the area, basing your fan base on the idea that people will switch teams is dangerous, we already have a team most football fans in the area are behind and a team some of the area are behind, I'd say an 80/20 split. Do you really think the thousands of fans who have already chosen a team are going to jump ship?
Griffo
Roar Guru
SportsFanGC - it's funny you mention the region down to Coffs: From Lake Macquarie all the way to Tweed is considered Northern NSW and the recent Melbourne City game with the Jets at Coffs shows both Northern NSW Football (state federation) and the Jets partnership that Northern would see the Jets as the flagship team of the federation (with links to the Emerging Jets youth teams). However with Coffs more or less the midpoint between Newcastle and the Gold Coast, and some GC United fans making their way up from Northern NSW during that time, it isn't inconceivable that a new Gold Coast entity could make use of a football hotspot around the Northern Rivers (Grafton, Lismore, Coffs) area as a broad feeder area. Coffs in particular might cause some consternation with Northern given it's a regional hub for junior football championships outside of Newcastle, but if say Red Bull wanted to draw a large area on a map, with a metropolitan zone (Gold Coast), an immediate stadium in Tweed and link grassroots with an A-League team from upper Northern NSW to southern Brisbane area, they couldn't go wrong here. I don't think there would even be a blink from the Jets either simply because it's such a large geographical area and would consolidate (for the Jets) an area south of Coffs.
j binnie
Guest
Mid -You just don't go back far enough. Les played his football for a team called St George (that is not the English St George but is in fact the Hungarian St George) that was started by Hungarian migrants in the late 1950's, and which blossomed under the guidance of another well credentialled Sydney business man, Alex Pongrass, who,just like Frank Lowy before him, had arrived here as a migrant,getting involved with another team called Hakoah. These two men are credited with having been the motivating force behind the establishment of the NSL in 1977, though the concept had actually been proven in Brisbane where a local team,Bardon Latrobe, had successfully,at their own expense, invited both Hakoah and St George to play in same day, fly in,play a game and fly home, format. These men obviously expanded on that experience. These games took place 3 years before the NSL began. St George went on to be a very strong identity in the competition until ,like Hakoah before them in 1987, they found the cost of maintaining a team of top stars like Warren, Marten, Ratcliffe and O'Connor just too much and they departed the league in 1992. Les ,like any true migrant, still has a soft spot for those early days in our semi- professional game but Alex Pongrass unfortunately departed the scene in 2000, and without men of that standing,, St George have found a new level in which to perform safely. Last year I spoke with CharIIe George (Arsenal) who had a loan spell at St George and he still spoke highly of his time in Sydney and remembers well the largesse shown to him by Alex Pongrass. Cheers jb
Epiquin
Roar Guru
The Gold Coast is a bit of a strange one. Teams just never seem to thrive there. So far we've seen a stack of RL teams fold on the Gold Coast whole the current side had to be bailed out by the NRL. GC United only managed a couple of seasons in the A-League. Gold Coast Blaze only managed five seasons in the NBL while their predecessors, The Cougars/Rollers, went defunct in 1996. The Brisbane Bears originally called the Gold Coast home, but were forced to move to Brisbane and eventually merge with Fitzroy Lions, while The Gold Coast Suns currently require a fair bit of resources from the AFL to stay afloat.
mattq
Guest
An MOU with the three associations for junior pathways makes sense and is in fact a great idea in the absence of other professional pathways. But let just leave it at that. The team must not play in three different locations pretending to represent all three. Let it be known the three associations have an MOU with the club and tacit support may well exist from the two non-represented areas based on this association. Once a team that represents the two non-represented areas is included, the MOU with southern can be reviewed. In this way Southern won't dilute it's support, will clearly represent a region and the two non-represented regions will still have a link to the club without the club trying to pretend it represents them.
RBBAnnonymous
Guest
I am a Wanderers fan and I have no problem with competition, why would I. I have connected well with my club.
j binnie
Guest
Cameron - There is a lot of basic common sense in this comment. I have published figures below, in another comment, that show, between both identities, SFC and WSW are pulling a combined 36,000 to HAL games every two weeks (as a rule). Strangely, when the Victory and City averages are combined, they too are attracting 34,000 to their HAL games every 2 weeks. Both these areas have populations around 4 million people. We move to Brisbane with it's ever increasing 2 millions and we find Roar are averaging nearly 15,000 to their games held every 2 weeks. Don't these figures tell us something. When these identities set themselves up as businesses they were given a terrific start with the "one club per city policy" but now, after 12 years of operating, there has been only marginal growth in the attraction of their product to a massive public, many already involved in the sport at lower levels. To me that points to an area of poor business practice,that of "marketing", and it is in this area most ,if not all, of out HAL clubs, need to take a long hard look at their operations. Keep up the good work Cheers jb..
j binnie
Guest
Brian-The information, and opinion that follows, is not always conducive to logical thinking. Take the habit of putting up the population of an area against crowds attracted to games argument, it is fraught with danger, for never ever is Sydney FC or Melbourne Victory going to attract 4 million people to a game.!!! It's a stupid argument is it not.? What is much more sensible is to look at the best crowd attracted to a game this season, (for whatever reason) and use that as a projected market that could be tapped into if some effort was expended by those who enjoyed the large crowd, ie the clubs involved... eg The Sydney "derby" at season's start (a factor to be considered) attracted almost 62,000 people to the game To me that is a target figure for both clubs to consider To date the two clubs have averaged 16,500 and 19,500, (figures affected by that first crowd) but even allowing for that influence the two teams have been pulling a combined 36,000 people to games held in the area every two weeks ,as a rule.. Now the question that arises out of those figures is ,where do the "missing" 26,000 go when a derby game is NOT taking place. That ,to my way of thinking,is a much more realistic avenue to be explored by the managements of teams involved in "derby" matches than it is to try and speculate over how many people out of an area's population can be lured to football. Make sense? Cheers jb. .
Martyn50
Roar Rookie
Alice Springs and Darwin?
Freddie
Guest
And the year before the Wanderers came along, Sydney FC averaged 7,500. The Wanderers arrival kicked Sydney FC into gear. They're still not brilliant, but their membership has doubled, their crowds have doubled (some on the back of ADP and the derbies for sure, but those games all count), and all of a sudden, we have 25-30,000 people watching the A-League every fortnight in Sydney (two clubs together), rather than 7,500. That's what expansion does. It stimulates the market, and reminds the existing clubs not to get sloppy.
Midfielder
Guest
Me neither
c
Roar Rookie
hope your comment was not rude
Stevo
Roar Rookie
My comment is awaiting moderation - how so Roar mods ??? It's harmless.
Stevo
Roar Rookie
Correct Sydney can cope. It's just that incumbents in any field of endeavour feel threatened by start-ups so will whinge and carry on as is their wont. It's not difficult to understand. It happened in Melbourne when Geoff Lord was calling for Heart FC to be sent to Siberia. Anywhere but not within cooee of the CBD. On Fozzy, you need to understand that he is a lifelong member of the Professional Footballers Association (PFA) and his expansion proposal borrows from the PFA model of 2002 http://www.pfa.net.au/wp-content/uploads/Attachment-1-in-text-FORTHEFANS.pdf Just go to page 8 showing a map of Sydney divided into 3. North, West and South. The PFA model was a 10 team comp.
punter
Guest
CK, The life of some football fans Monday morning - It's all doom & gloom, we have a stagnating competition, no new teams, same teams playing each other, no P/R, no 2nd division, FFA are useless. Monday afternoon - we have a article in Fin Review saying Red Bull looking to invest in new A-league team. We have 2 prominent football identities fronting a new Expanison big with strong Chinese investment. Tuesday Morning - We don't want new football teams in this area, we don't have money to invest but we want our say in where next A-league club should be based. We don't want a soft drink company running an A-League side. Wednesday Morning - I wait with baited breath. I just don't understand.