A tale of two rebuilds: Dragons versus Bulldogs

Have a look at the Saints injuries and suspensions, should be an interesting team for next week.

Great article mate. Good job.

How good would it have been to have Klemmer and Tapau this year? Why your board were scrapping amongst themselves, players of that quality have walked out the door. Don't worry, the Broncos board have just watched Fifita and Coates leave while they faff around justifying their existence and negotiating pay out clauses for Seibold. The Panthers have just as big a history of stupid roster management and have presided over the losses of Des Hasler, Damian Cook (he started in our u20 team for two years before he went to the Dogs. To fair to both clubs he was a late bloomer), Brad Fittler, Mark Carroll, Matt Sing, Wade Graham and Michael Jennings. Those are just the good ones, plenty of others were cast aside because the club was asleep at the wheel. All three clubs deserve to be mocked for their stupidity and it just goes to show you how important it is to have a good back office. Professional, talented club administrators are vital to a club's success. When Bullfrog was the man, the Dogs were always competitive. The Broncos were always competitive when Ribot was there pulling strings in the background. He went to the Storm and built that club and look at it now. It will be interesting to see if the new administration at the Dogs are going to turn things around and see your team become feared again.

The Dogs definitely haven’t been clever with their juniors recently and current administration are working on rebuilding the junior pathways But even allowing for that the Dogs haven’t only produced 7 juniors. As mentioned before there are at least another five on the injured lust 14 of the Dogs 30 man squad have debuted with the club But they’ve also developed other players that are playing elsewhere in the NRL Mbye, Finucane, Taupau, Klemmer, Cook, Lane, Ese’ese, Thompson, Harper, Reimis Smith, Montoya and Burr off top of my head that are bulldogs juniors or debuted at the Bulldogs plying their trade elsewhere Plus Josh Reynolds and probably others in the ESL With what they’ve retained and what they’ve let go that’s pretty a much a full NRL squad… providing the NRL with 1/16 of the player pool is pulling their weight even allowing for poor junior pathways and small catchment area

The Fegai twins, Blake Lawrie, Dufty, Amone all Dragons juniors.

No arrogance intended or pride felt. I called my club " a smidgeon above “sh#t and you know you are”", wasteful of resources and guilty of waiting for "miraculous" events to occur. I have actually cited three examples of clubs producing success through juniors because of good coaching and development. The Roosters and Storm being the best examples. The early Broncos are a fourth example. A conveyor belt of juniors debuted at the club and the premierships followed. Even now, they produce a lot of good quality players, but their poor roster management has seen them squander many of their quality players. The Panthers are new to the altar of "development as the key to success". We have nothing to be proud of, but we are at least trying something and investing in it. It worked for the Storm, the Roosters and the early Broncos. I am hoping it works for us, but I also want to see the NRL thrive and it won't do it with clubs fielding 7 juniors out of 17.

I think the biggest downfall for lots of clubs is the novel idea that you can build a team around one player, pay him a squillion, and spread the crumbs amongst the rest. Tigers have Brooks as theirs. Dragons have Norman and Hunt. Massive road blocks to success when you view the salary cap as some kind of pyramid scheme.

My point is that despite the advantages that a huge junior nursery presents in developing juniors, the Panthers have only recently gotten it right and still don’t have a premiership for it - although that might change before long It’s borderline arrogant for a Panthers fanto be saying “everyone should look how we do it” You’re right, it doesn’t mean automatic success, but it’s far easier developing juniors with a massive nursery than it is without... saying anything else is ridiculous

TB you are getting desperate if you are claiming Thompson and the 18th man as Dogs' debutants, but anyhow, let's say you have 7 Dogs debutants, is that a good outcome? First of all, I am calm. Second of all, I am certainly not banging on about how good the Panthers are. We have a paltry two Premierships after 44 years. We are just a smidgeon above "sh#t and you know you are". Finally after 40 odd years, somebody woke up and decided to put the large junior area to good use and actually try and develop and coach players rather than wait for the next Brandy or Freddie to miraculously appear. About frigging time. That said, you have jumped to the very easy conclusion that a large junior area means success. If it did, the Eels and Panthers would be multiple premiers in the last twenty years and the Roosters would be holding wooden spoons. They prove exactly my point. Emphasise development and coaching and you can build players. The Storm are even better at it than the Roosters. They can take mature players and improve them through their coaching and development. This no fluke. Both clubs have done this repeatedly. Having a junior base means nothing if you don't develop and coach them properly. The Panthers have always had a large pool of juniors, but they have delivered very little from it because they didn't put an emphasis on it and invest like they do now. A criminal waste of the junior resources. Maybe there is an Eels fan who will disagree with me, but they are in the same position. A huge pool of juniors and very little to show for it except salary cap breaches and wooden spoons. All the Panthers current success proves to me is that if every club put the same emphasis on development they would produce a much larger number of first grade ready juniors and deepen the talent pool.

Never noticed him in his handful of games at the Panthers, but Billy Burns is only 22 and has had some nice games since joining this year.

Lost in Melbourne. It was a detailed read but I feel like you've had to squeeze the facts on St George to make it fit the narrative you want to tell. I don't think Firstly on juniors, this year Lomax, Kerr, Lawrie, Dufty, Ramsay, Merrin, Clune, Bird, Amone, 2x Feagai's & Sims have all played first grade. I don't think Ford has played first grade this year so didn't count him, JDB might also be back it seems. There's also players like Periera & Ravalawa who made their debuts for Saints. That's a pretty healthy representation - in fact it's probably only the Panthers that can make a stronger claim. Secondly on pack age, McCullough is a genuine old ring-in, McGuire seems old but is only 30 - like Vaughan & Sims. In the modern game this is not particularly ancient, many forwards have their best years around there. The Sharks pack of a few years ago was significantly older (and still went OK). Regardless, a good chunk of the regular pack is 25 or under and just starting to hit their stride (Kerr, Lawrie, Faamausili, Fuimaono, Burns). Lastly I can't let go the idea that the Dragons 'won't make the 8'. They are currently in 6th, a couple of points and a decent for/against margin up on the rest of the field. I'm not counting my chickens, there's a long way to go, but which teams behind them would you point at as certainties to blow past them? On Sims, Lawrie, Kerr and Ford are all local juniors (Ford not currently getting a run in the 17). So it's not like the forwards are all imports. Forwards at 30 like Sims & Vaughan aren't particularly old, I'd argue that in the modern era most have their best few years around that point. Lawrie, Kerr

Calm down. It’s not true anyway The Dogs had Averillo, Elliott, Deitz, Lewis and Atoni on Sunday. Doorey was the 18th man. Luke Thompson made his NRL debut with the Dogs They also have Jackson, Okunbor, Marshall-King and Topine out injured It’s all well and good banging on about how good the Panthers are at bringing through their juniors... they have a junior catchment area way larger than any other Sydney club in terms of area and numbers Yet it’s still not that long ago that the Panthers were signing players like Luke Walsh and Travis Burns. The Panthers haven’t been getting it right for long despite all the inbuilt advantages they have...

“but of the Dragons and Bulldogs teams who lined up Sunday, they boasted just five and four players respectively who debuted within those teams” Just let that statement sink in. A proud club like the Dogs could only produce FOUR players to play in their team. FOUR. A couple of rounds ago, the Panther’s fielded a side where 15 out of the 17 players had debuted at their club. What has the club been spending its money on? Clearly they haven’t invested in development. I know there is a view that there isn’t enough talent to go around, but I think there is no shortage of talented kids playing league. There is a shortage of clubs prepared to invest in development. This includes investing in NSW cup. For example, Manly don’t even have a NSW cup side, they have a feeder side. They rely on an amateur club to be the finishing school for their developing players. The Storm have no choice, there is no reserve grade competition in Victoria and so they have to use a QLD feeder club. Manly choose to take the cheap option. Canterbury use the Mounties and it shows a lack of clear thinking about how you bring players through to become a first grader. That lack of thought is how you get four debutantes. The Panthers used to have St Marys as its NSW cup side and the players trained over at St Marys’ ground. How do young players get to understand what the first grade standard for training is, if they never get to see it? As for St George, I suspect that Hook’s appointment is because he has coached at two clubs who do produce a lot of debutants, the Bronco’s and the Panther’s and he knows what it takes to produce players. I am not sure he can turn things around in two years though. It took five years for Gus to get the Panthers development processes aligned so it could start to churn out players good enough for first grade. If we want better quality players in the NRL, then we need to invest more in development and the NRL needs to incentivise clubs to make the investment. There are plenty of talented kids out there, they just need the coaching and opportunity.

While Anthony Griffin may be concentrating on the here and now, his team if playing reasonably welI, which is good for morale, I think Trent Barret has gone too far the other way. Expecting Kyle Flanagan to lead the team around while partnered with the inexperienced Jake Averillo, with not one leader in the rest of the spine, is a recipe for disaster. I think signing Flanagan was a mistake, he looked OK in a top team, but they let him go and we should NEVER sign either the Roosters or Storm rejects. There was too much hype about getting Burton this year instead of accepting the fact that he is not off contract till next year. Therefore not enough effort to improve what we have, the way they are going every player will have their confidence shot. and we can't replace them all. In my opinion they would have been better off leaving Cogger and Lewis in the halves for this year, with Averillo in another position or coming in late to sharpen the attack, thus leaving more money to sign an experience half if one became available. Now the team is playing with no heart and no confidence, something the coach should fix.

Sorry, DP.

:shocked: You wretch.. I dropped $18 worth of Chivas on my rug when I read that.

yessiree Bob. Thought that was what I was saying. They have the foundation, ANF need to develop. I'd rather Ford than Moose especially since we started losing when he came.

Typical! (smile)

Provided recruitment get #'s 8-13 correct.

Yes but what about St George Illawarra? :stoked: