Has rugby lost its way again?

Money perhaps!

That is a great letter. I will skip the part where he is whinging about being close to two NRL clubs, in part because it is interesting to note East's chairman's comments on the NRL threat in the west in: https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-union/eastern-teams-unwavering-on-shute-shield-reform-call-for-western-clubs-to-merge-20210603-p57xtr.html His reasoning mirrors mine although the interesting part is in regard to the administration of the challenged clubs. This rings true to me. It is near impossible to get on the committee of a powerful successful club while near impossible to get off the committee of a failing one. There is no money to hire expert resources either, and sponsorship is difficult because of small crowds. They probably have trouble collecting player subs, let alone getting 80% attendance at two sessions a week. Home crowds are small because of fewer grades and away lower grades and supporters skipping the game. Taking my previous argument further, the longer we persist with this dysfunctional competition the more likely these clubs will fold, and the median clubs become weaker, and so on. Murray is right, the weaker clubs need to be built up. I would be surprised if more than two or three 'strong' clubs could even afford to commit resources to help out the western clubs. Given the amount of compromise and change that will be required by the west clubs, the last people they want 'helping' is the 'strong' clubs. I would not think a 'merger' is the answer, but there would need to be a serious amount of rugby and intellectual grunt required to come up with a solution that rendered 8 competitive teams, preserved the clubs' history and independence, and established some effective development pathways. That is the best answer of all, and maybe an existential crisis is required to get people to the table. This is a RA problem, the west is a huge potential nursey for all five provincial teams, and it also probably needs a party one step away from NSWRU to facilitate it. It may be that some dissident groups need to emerge in those clubs to help develop a feasible plan to put to club members. If I look in the mirror that John Murray just held up then I see glimpses of people who just want to complain that nothing can be done. I think they need 10 clubs meeting the criteria, if 8 is all we can come up with it is not a promising outcome for Australian rugby.

And with your other reply I totally agree Jake, there needs to be greater investment out West to stop the player drain to both League and the Eatsern clubs. It is interesting that in younger ages Penrith and Parra are very good sides but in the older divisions their players go elsewhere and the depth just drops. I hope RA steps in to make that power play for the Western Suburbs you mentioned because heck the solutions to a lot of rugby's player depth problems is sitting right there staring at them.

"investing in building strong foundations across the country" This is the key to me. https://www.southerndistricts.com.au/club-news/2021-head-coach-insight-round-8 I found this open letter from Todd Louden interesting. Especially: "For a number of years there have been rumours floating around that “the powers that be” want an eight team Shute Shield competition. The logic is that fewer teams produces a higher quality competition, greater access for each club to junior catchment areas, a more concentrated market for sponsorship opportunities, and an easier pathway to a national club competition." I'm not sure who the "powers" are, is it the strongest clubs or NSWRU/RA? Regardless that last line is where I think they are trying to go. This feels like step 1.

Sorry Jez, I have had a few problems with my PC and comments being invalid etc and am a bit lost. Think it is all up to date now. Yes it was in relation to canning the seven clubs, I just do not see this as being viable or sensible. I did say I was dubious of some clubs, they have always been focussed on being stand alone in a NRC type competition. Probably the same ones that have to be salary capped. Your suggestion makes a bit of sense, this way RA gets it 'NRC standard' feeder comp at a minimal cost. This is typical RA thinking, all about the elite teams winning, thinking it will get paying bums on seats. Where do you start with these turkeys? You can just see the PE money being invested to do whatever it takes to perform well at the RWC in the hope of pumping up TV rights. There is no future for rugby without investing in building strong foundations across the country. I don't think such a competition makes a lot of sense, it will disrupt the clubs that are more marginal. I would be a bit surprised if it was the primary motivation of all seven clubs. There could be a fear of being left out of a "NRC" but they would also be worried it will end very badly financially. If the RA is promoting it, that will just about be the end of rugby for me. The emotional cost is too high, I am over 60 and cannot remember when it was not part of our family.

“Has rugby lost its way again?” I hear you say. Yes, yes it has. As it happens it was a while ago – following the World Cup in Sydney in 2003. Immediately after the power brokers banked the $42 million cheque and sat back to admire their exceptional skill and ability as hosts. :happy: :stoked:

Thanks for that Jez. A couple of issues: The SU report is useful, I could not find the historical results on their website. As you say it is hard to compare or analyse. SU's revenue activities and costs are not representative because they have their sport association. The other clubs would not want to be highlighting player payments if there are any. Historically there has been 3 Colts with U/19 replacing 3rd during some period. It seems there was a 5th grade comp but I would say there is a good chance it has been lost due to the number of clubs unable to field five grades rather than some decision to cut the number of grades to increase quality. In my experience once you are forced to cut a competition you lose players and then struggle to cover the next lower grade. Wests is a worry, obviously moving from Concord has hit them hard. Just looking at a few clubs I think these criteria are what they can meet now. Cutting back to fit the other clubs is a backward step. NSWRU and RA need to fix this.

Sorry Mug, is this in response to my comment yesterday morning to let the 7 do as they like and promote new teams into the Sydney Premiership in their place? That comment comes from a context of these clubs kicking teams out of the Premiership in what to me looks like a plan to try and emulate the English and French premierships. I think their goal is to get Tuggeranong, Brothers and UQ in to join them and eventually replace Super Rugby. 100% this is for NSWRU and RA to dictate terms but per AndyS's speculation, I suspect they are up to their eyeballs in this. They've tinned NRC and are paving the way. Why else did a whisper of France not coming down elicit a statement from McLennan that he'd do "whatever it takes" to ensure the tour goes ahead. Meanwhile three teams in the most critical geographic region in the country are at risk of being cut or forced to merge and all we get are crickets.

Maybe not kicking goals but at least we are on the field which is more than could be said this time last year.

I don't think my club is paying players at all. 10 teams plus junior clubs is a fair bit to run. Creating arguments around paying players is a huge assumption, a better one is that most probably can't afford it, and this limits those who can. I am not sure 40 weeks at 3 sessions a week is out of the question and would be surprised if any of the seven are doing less. You only need to attend a few games of the lower performers to see they are not. A lot of talented players though. This is straight out neglect by RA and NSW. There should be more responsibility for fixing it from the minor states than these 7 clubs as they are the main beneficiaries. Players in the outer areas of Sydney will see more opportunity in league or in joining an inner city club. You could really invest into these areas but I suspect that a good deal of the PE money will end up in elite players' pockets. Bring back established players to Australia, win some tests and problem solved.

Some reasonable ideas and you might ask NSWRU and RA are doing about it. My guess is that they do not see it as their responsibility. Otherwise it is inexplicable that they have done nothing about it for so long. As for the rest of your posts you might need to make a few enquiries yourself on how much it costs to run rugby at these major clubs, your statements on the number of grades and the reason team numbers have fluctuated. Overall a pretty unconstructive point of view and a bizarre proposed outcome.

Why is it the only Western Sydney strategy to tap into the region is negative strategy to make sure irrelevant by getting rid of remaining shute shield clubs in Western Sydney rather then investing in and supporting them. NSWRU biggest impact on future growth potential was again a negative with denying consortium wanting to invest in a WS GRR team....ie actually turn away some willing to invest in Western Sydney vs completely ignoring doing anything themselves to develop and tap into this huge untapped market of young Polynesian talent that otherwise goes to league with lack of choices and solid pathways union offers in the region.

It's always good seeing posts like this. It makes it easy to find out who watches the game and who doesn't.

Canberra is a smaller city than Sydney or Brisbane but a microcosm of what the author is talking about. The Canberra Junior competition includes the clubs and the private Schools (Marist, Eddies, Daramalan, Grammar and Radford). Everybody plays on Saturdays in one competition. To some extent the clubs are the losers (if it is a loss) because the schools have a hard and fast rule that you can only play for your school, so District Teams like Yass, Royals, Easts, Tuggies, etc lose a lot of juniors between the ages of 10 and 18, but in general, most aspire to play for local clubs and the Brumbies after leaving school. I don’t imagine, at present, that too many are aspiring to play for the Waratahs. The Schools still play mid-week games against each other. Then there is no Rugby on Sundays and many of the kids play League for the local clubs. There also tends to be trends, that blokes want to keep playing with their mates, so certain schools favour certain clubs. It is a simple and easy pathway, and most talented Canberra kids would aspire to go to the Brumbies or the Raiders. Perhaps it’s time for the private schools in the other capitals to “come into the tent”. You can still have your traditional days such as Riverview -v- Joeys, etc and nothing needs to change there. I personally can’t see any downside and it is an elegant but simple solution

The exact wording is open to interpretation but I'd be very surprised if the Salary Cap is anything but payments to players. I've looked at the reports for a couple of clubs, the wording differs so unlikely this compares apples with apples. Sydney Uni - Rugby Operations 454,720 (for the 2020 year, 592,768 in 2019) West Harbour - Player Costs 156,088 (this is a 2019 number, couldn't find their 2020 report) Southern Districts - Player costs and development 321,154 (for 2020, 455,993 in 2019) West Harbour have a more detailed report than the others with for example another 50k for coaching, 37k for strength and conditioning training, 63k for match day but regardless it's clear there is a major disparity in what is being spent on players. It supports your position that it may actually limit what some of the richer clubs are spending. Still it looks like it is imposing a hurdle compared to what the less wealthy clubs are able to spend. https://www.sydneyunirugby.com.au/files//2020_AGM/18085_SYDUNI_Rugby_Annual_Report_2020_Web_Single.pdf https://westharbourrugby.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/West-Harbour-Rugby-Football-Club-Limited-Financial-Statements-Final-2019.pdf https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5eae723e551ecf3b8c3cb8a2/t/5fa5f9a53c84443d2d1b6fb8/1604712871244/SDRC+Financial+Report+for+AGM+-+2020+021120+5.30pm.pdf

The clubs are responsible to do what is best for them. There is not a full home and away structure either and it is possible you can end up with too many dud home games which affects your revenues for the year as well. This happened to my club a couple of years back, plus a few washouts etc. Again it comes back to the senior bodies. They have invested nothing in the game or in a whole of game strategy. Half baked businesspeople in key highly paid roles and a bunch of trophy directors. A lot of this looks simple to us, and I am sure there are unseen difficulties. I cannot believe that the NSWRU and especially RA has given it any thought. For RA, Sydney is its biggest nursery, but they cannot think past this year's P&L and balance sheet. Invest money in SS? They might just piss it up the wall. The last comment I saw from the Chairman, PE money will be used to stop players going overseas. They do not know where to start. They have no skin in the game, if it falls apart they just move on, blaming the state of the game, the knuckleheads on the ground who stopped them being a genius or COVID. You all know it, this spin is in the financial news every day. A lot of ROAR contributors could do a better job but any director application would probably get thrown out by somebody's PA.

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I think you half answered the question Jez; how many other roles are there? I am pretty sure my club sits around that mark and will have a look at the last couple of years P&Ls. Will get back to you on this thread in due course.

G'day Dave - apologies if this winds up a double post (I added something last night but it hasn't appeared). If it was about self preservation they wouldn't be putting in place the 200K salary cap, nor requiring 3 on field training sessions for 50 players for 40 weeks of the year with individual professional grade strength and conditioning programs. For self preservation all they'd need to do is be amateur and focus on providing opportunity for local players.

Not sure how many but they definitely claim him.