'If you're humble it's what you have to do': Argentina coach's classy call after record defeat

Nobrain, thank you. I would love to see Argentina seriously competitive again.

Not really . The European nations will have to their disposal all the players they want for their national teams for the period they want while their domestic competitions will still on. They will fill the teams with all the foreign players like they usually do and by the time the Pumas will be released they will need rest and probably carry some minor injuries. This is also a problem for Fiji and Samoa which is the level of tier that will be playing from now on. We will be the Italy of the RCH.

You are so right Carlos. The Jaguares were the best thing to happen to Super Rugby and now they are gone.

Maybe, but I would think that Argentinean players in Europe will be much better prepared for the grind of the European season, by virtue of having lived through a previous season. (It's much easier to pace yourself if you've already done something before).

What does this have to do with Ledesma, I wonder?

Boxing the Jaguars out of SR after making it to the Grand Finals never passed the smell test for me. Global development vs propping up P&L sheets of the already well established rugby nations. Ask yourself why Georgia can't get into the 6 Nations, or Japan can't get in Super Rugby or any other global comp. Or why all the SA pro teams are now playing in Europe. The reality is there is NO global rugby model, its just a patchwork of siloed decision making from and geared to the old guard.

I don't know Jacko !! Is that what the New Zealand market really wants ? Based on the number of experienced players now plying their trade overseas, the competition has already been compromised but leaving quality to one side for a moment, put simply, based on the number of quality player's New Zealand can draw upon, based on the Rugby infrastructure in place, based on the country's proportionally greater public interest in the game and knowing as I know, just how inherent Rugby is to the culture and psyche of the nation is it reasonable to expect that anything will have substantially changed in the latest iteration of Super Rugby ? Put simply, the competition is too imbalanced to engage a larger and broader market. Rugby League and AFL have their own issue's to be sure but they literally obsess about such matters and actively take measures including drafts, salary caps and rule changes to redress imbalances perceived or otherwise. From a financial point of view they are significantly bigger players in the Australasian market than Super Rugby could ever hope to be. Why would Super Rugby think that such considerations are above them ? After close to a quarter of a century the competition hasn't gained significant traction in Australia, in fact, in the public's mind, it has gone backwards ...... why, based on the current structure would anyone think that this year will be any different ? At some point SANZAR or whoever these faceless men of Australasian Rugby are , must ask themselves ........Do they want the game to remain, a long drawn out All Black trial of passing interest to a few Kiwi's or do they seriously wish to develop an entertaining product that Audiences across the globe but specifically the lucrative Australian market can engage in. Believe me........ watching Australian teams getting flogged week in week out ad nauseum may amuse some but it has become a great bore on this side of the ditch and I don't even support Australian teams. I support Rugby and I would like to think that I support what I believe to be good for the game. Nero, according to some fiddled whilst Rome burned. I can only hope that Rugby administrator's will not do the same.

Would make a fantastic forwards coach for the Wallabies in place of more brumbies McKeller

I think the way the competition is set up now could work well. It may take a couple of seasons for the two new teams to gel. I think that is an aspect of the venture that most people underappreciate but i could be wrong. I'd prefer however for the SR pacific to be a proper home and away season. I'd rather do away with finals series etc in order for this to happen. I am a firm believer that the best team at the end of a home and away season should take the crown and that finals series are a corruption that is only there for the uninformed or as a revenue source. A rugby season is in some part a game of attrition and the team that is the most consistent should win not just the team that puts up the best last game (final) of the year.

That's true ScottD but only to a degree. Personally I don't support any one particular team and like you, I love to see quality Rugby but having said as much I also want to be entertained. Sure the quality of the game undeniably and significantly adds to the value of the product but that is only part of the equation. Rugby like most sport is a lot less entertaining if your team has no skin in the game. It's great to see Moana Pasifika included this year but not if, as I suspect will be the case they end up on a hiding to nothing. Predictability is the death knell for sport. It's been the achilles heel of Super Rugby for too long and I suspect this year will be no different. Great if you live in Christchurch though.

Is that what we want tho? Do we want to reduce the quality of the comp down to the Aus Sr standard or do we want a stronger NZ quality comp? I believe the quality comp is the one that will best suit both nations and the Fijian and PI sides too.

No argument here.... I agree with that. I was just commenting briefly what happend last year.

By the time the clubs release them they will be burned out and exhausted.

Absolutely. In my view all coaches have a use by date (I am considering this in my own context for next year), players and support staff get tired of hearing the same messages, from the same voice, delivered in the same way. There are vey few exceptions, especially at an elite level, who are able to last the distance e.g. Alec Fergusson, Craig Bellamy, Wayne Bennett (though he seems to be losing his mojo, I suspect this is due to the change of player attitudes). Survival is also tied to success if players are winning it is easier to maintain positive dressing rooms (Justin Langer and David Nucifora are probably exceptions to this).

As do fellow coaches and support staff. Everybody really

It would be a backwards step for the Pumas, to have Cheika in charge for sure.

I think it is the intensity of the personality and the 100% on 100% of the time. Players are energised by that initially but it wears thin eventually.

That’s easy Peter, add a few more NZ teams to the existing 5. Play 2 full home and away rounds. Start in March or April to avoid summer heat. Play thru the international window so marginal and non-international players get more game time.

Ledesma's tenure had ups and downs. His 2018 was pretty good, since the Pumas won 2 RCh Tests that year (notwithstanding the shocking second half collapse of the second Test against Australia that year). His 2019 was terrible, though that was partially due to the Jaguars competing in the SR final against the Crusaders (pretty much the same side flew from Argentina to NZ to play the Crusaders and then flew back to play the ABs, then flew to Australia to play the Wallabies to come back home to play the Springboks, all within 5 weeks) and UAR's stated preference for SR based players over players in Europe (Ledesma didn't help himself much in some of the decisions he made in re: European players, or in the things he said, but the fact remains that he was hamstrung by a policy he didn't create). 2020 was obviously an annus horribilis, and the Pumas managed a much better campaign than anybody could have expected (with a 1-1-2 record in the Tri-Nations Cup). But the seeds for the collapse in 2021 were evident, in the lack of attacking nous from the Pumas (just 15 months earlier, pretty much the same group of players had famously shown an attacking flair that was a joy, while playing for the Jags). 2021 had a half-way decent July window (a series win against Lionless Wales side), but some alarms were already blaring (very weak win against Romania). The Rch was a mess, both the two Test against the Boks (were the Pumas were outmuscled and outplayed by a Bok side which was resting some of its starters after the Lions series) and the 4 Tests in Oceania. The November window could have been a bright light, if the Pumas had managed to beat France (they were in that Test until the final minutes), but they were ridiculed by Ireland in the last Test of the window. At that point, the writing was on the wall. Ledesma did himself no favors during the RCh and November windows by insisting on playing Santiago Carreras as Fly Half (Mr. Carreras has historically been a Wing or a Full Back). *** One thing that was obvious during 2021 was that even some of the most outstanding Pumas players (Matera, Kremer, Isa) were not playing up to their usual level. That surely is a consequence of the Flying Dutchman life they had to live during that year (no Tests at home, long bubble periods in South Africa and Australia), but I also think it was a consequence of Pumas players not feeling comfortable in their new surroundings with their European clubs. Results for 2022 seem promising, in that a number of players who were lackluster in 2021 seem to having good seasons, so I think the new Pumas HC will reap the benefit of his charges being more at ease this season. Plus the Pumas are scheduled to play 6 Tests in Argentina during 2022. Being home has to help.

We cannot forget that when Guastella was preparing the Pumas for the first rugby world cup in 1987, the players revolted to his training plan claiming "we are not professionals!" And so it started.