Batting failures in England: India keeps doing the same thing and achieving the same result

I keep telling my cricket friends that there are many things that are wrong in the Indian cricket and that some of the wins are masking them. We need to see the flaws whether we are winning or losing. With the current way of things in Indian cricket, I don’t see India becoming the Windies of 70s and 80s or the Aussies of 90s and 00s. One team that is actually progressing continuously is New Zealand and not India as many people think. India could have become a dominating power with all the talent that we have. IPL showed us so many new faces. But it’s not just IPL. The last decade or so of the domestic structure has been amazing. Sadly we are not able to bring it to the international level. Blame it on the team management or the captains or the coaches but few people really need to accept it. Let’s start it with the middle order. The problem is the entire middle order. The 3,4,5 contributions in the last few years is really bad. In all fairness I believe Vihari should be playing at no. 5 now. Rewind a lil and I genuinely believe Manish Pandey should have played a lot in that position. I still keep telling people around me that his career should have had 100 tests and 300 ODIs during his retirement. His game is more suited to the longer format but he is shown to people as a T20 specialist. Look at his numbers; 50+ average in first class and close to 50 in List A but made to play occasionally in shorter formats. I don’t think anyone in the current setup has a clue of what his role is. I would have played Rohit at no. 3 on his test return and not as an opener. His first class has all been a fine middle order batter but made to open now. Opening in white ball and red ball are two different things. It’s unnecessary pressure on Rohit now. I would open with Rahul and Mayank; Rohit, Virat and Vihari to follow. Since Rohit has made a mark now as an opener, I don’t see that change now. So Mayank plays at 3. And its okay too. The game has evolved very much now. No. 3 now is not a position to block but a chance to take the game on. See Root when he played at 3, Labuschagne or Smith. Or Ponting and Sanga from the previous gen, they all took it as a position to attack and take the match forward. Dravid’s style was awesome for India because India never had a solid opening pair until we saw Sehwag and Gambhir. In my opinion Rahul Dravid opened the Indian innings at no. 3. So Pujara’s style of play doesn’t suit how the game is being played or how it should be played now. Next comes no. 6. The guy who really deserves (atleast few games to see where he stands) is Sheldon Jackson. Pant and Samson can be backup until they find some consistency. Pujara and Rahane have had too many chances now. Whether they deserved or not is a different topic. But these two should make way now for Mayank and Vihari. A 50 can't be an excuse for the next 5 games because the purpose is lost by then. Giving such an extended run is extremely unfair on the people sitting out. My top 6 for the next game should be Rahul, Mayank, Rohit, Virat, Vihari and Pant. Whether India wants to go 4 bowlers or 5 bowlers, Ashwin has to play in the spinners slot ahead of Jaddu. Saying Jaddu's batting is an advantage is a myth we are made to believe. If batting is what is needed India can go with an additional batsman. The only choice where Ashwin should be dropped is if the team wants to have 4 bowler all-pace attack. If its 1 spinner 4 pacers or 1 spinner 3 pacers or 2 spinners 3 pacers, whichever way Ash should fit in first. Now that India is on a 1 spinner 4 pacers plan, Ashwin plays at 7 ahead of Jaddu. Spin conditions and both would play but for now Ash should take the priority. The 4 pacers. My first two pick would be Shami and Umesh; so far to say that I would pick them ahead of Bumrah too. Shami and Umesh are too good for red ball game to be left out. I am okay with them being left out in both 50 and 20 over formats but they should be the first pick in tests. Bumrah and Thakur (slots in at 8) the other two pacers. Yes I have been lil harsh on Siraj but for now he plays when one of the other 4 is being rested. Shreyas Iyer, Manish Pandey, Devdutt Padikkal, Sheldon Jackson and few others (Indrajit like someone mentioned here) have to be brought into the loop. Some of them may miss out on the 11 or miss out on the squad itself but they should be communicated regularly how far or how close they are to making it into the 11. I feel the biggest wrongdoing on the part of selectors in the last decade or so has been the communication or the lack of it. If S.Badrinath couldn't make it to the team, it was understandable. He played in an era where Dravid, VVS, Sach were too good to be played ahead of; and they were consistently good. But if someone like Manish or Sheldon questioned their exclusion, what answers can we come up with? Can we really put our hands on our heart and say the players selected have been consistently performing? Someone playing purely as a batter with an average of 40! Nope. There is something wrong. Coming outside the playing 11 or the combinations, there are two changes that India has to make and the selectors and the board have to be brave on this. Removing Virat from captaincy and looking beyond Ravi for the coach. As an Indian cricket fan, I have nothing but huge admiration for Virat and what he has done for the team. The games he has won for the team is nothing short of spectacle. Let me go back a lil to pre-Kohli captaincy. Dhoni - the master. Dhoni's captaincy style was/is more suited to shorter formats. He is the kind of captain if opposition gives a lil space, he would squeeze and squeeze and take the match under his control. His calm demeanor meant that more often than not the opposition would give in to their emotions and Dhoni would grab it. This style I feel won't suit the longer format as it's a long game and the opposition play calm too. But he did have a great success in his first few years in tests. How? A large part of the credit has to go the senior group then. The top 5 of Viru, Gauti, Dravid, Sach and Laxy was a cushioning that any captain can dream of. And they played consistently as a group. And India generally had atleast 2 amazing spinners in their ranks at any point of time. With Zak playing in his peak, Dhoni had the huge advantage of letting the players do what they want; just tweak with 1 position at best and the results were great. That is why once the seniors retired, Dhoni's style did not work in the tests. A Michael Clarke could build a new team to the top but Dhoni could not. Once the seniors retired I knew Dhoni's captaincy would fail in tests and a new energy was required. I feel Virat should have been handed captaincy few years earlier itself, atleast in tests. Is Kohli a bad captain? Not really. And he was the one India needed in tests at that point. India needed some aggression in tests and there he was. The test format does need a lot of enthusiasm as the game will have a lot of low energy periods and Virat's style suits the format. There are two big contributions on his part, in his captaincy. One, the fitness levels - to bring it to the world standard. Two, bringing the fast bowlers to the foreground where they can compete against the best in the world. Once we achieved these two, Kohli's captaincy touched the saturation point. He is not a master technician, which is clearly visible in shorter formats and big ticket tournaments. I think the time has come to pass on the baton to the next brain. He should give up captaincy and start being the run machine he was. I genuinely believe he will win more games with the bat than with his captaincy. Also, his way of being and running the one man show is detrimental to a team sport. Maybe it worked for a while but it won't sustain in the long run. The head coach. The superstar culture in our country means the head coach has to be a big name. Not necessarily in-the-face type of person. But a man with big credentials. And a good thinking brain. I really feel Kumble was the best option we had. Sadly we let him go. Past is past. The best suited now according to me is Jason Gillespie or Matthew Hayden or Mahela Jayawardene. With Hayden working for Cricket Australia, BCCI should go in for Gillespie or Mahela at any cost. One of them as the coach with Rohit being the captain in all 3 formats for the next few years. Until we find the next captaincy material. The best captaincy I have seen in the Indian domestic cricket in the last few years are Manish Pandey and Jaydev Unadkat. Both of them surprised me with how they handled their respective teams. Unfortunately its hard for them to make it to the team, forget captaincy. So Rohit it has to be until we find the next gun.

Disagree Jeff and Tsat. The English seamers we’re getting the new ball to talk. There is simply no technique that deals with balls aimed at middle and off stump and seam sharply away towards slips. Survival can be a matter of luck. Root actually showed worse technique by leaving a gap to get bowled. By the time Thakur batted the pitch and the seam were flatter.

Does the bench have the skillset for English conditions though Tsat? I think there is a fundamental issue here for India that goes well beyond the current incumbents. I know he's not in the squad, but Gill would surely be next cab-off-the-rank if fit? And although I thought Gill was a revelation in Australia, he really plays like an Australian batsman - hard hands, forceful off the front foot, ability to boss the game with square shots using the bounce and pace. But I have real reservations that he would succeed over a prolonged basis in England. Acknowledge he got a few runs in the WTC Final, but he didn't look completely comfortable. Only Kohli is (now) showing technique to use the feet to get across the line to cover swing/seam movement - the rest of the batsmen seem to be waiting like deers in the headlight, poking the bat at lines that get them done via the edge, or caught trapped in front by the fuller ball that is aimed on the stumps..

If he'd scored 20 in the first innings he would have had to bat for at least 6 hours.

I know what you mean.I scored a dashing run a ball double century every time I batted...Sadly I then woke up and had to go to work.

Don't let Rowdy hear you say Lehmann had masters ahead of him ... :stoked:

Pujara averaging 20 runs also means he would be averaging 3 hours.

They came up with a stat last night that the India 3, 4 & 5 have averaged 28.8 runs in the last year or so (can’t remember the exact timeframe). For the undisputed number 1 test team (NZ may dispute it but still think a one off test proves nothing), that’s a shocking statistic.

I agree with everything that has been said here. Just want to add that, i am really liking Rishabh's batting. I mean the attacking mindset. Wonder how many runs he has scored in the simulation set in his mind.

India's batsman are really tentative and batting poorly at the moment, but in all this is getting overlooked is just the quality of England's bowling. There is just no weak link and yesterday in particular I would say more credit to England as they have been too good with the ball. Hard to see both Rahane and Pujara staying for the next test if they keep playing like this. I hope Rahane just opens up and bats naturally in the 2nd digs.

People rave on SKY and he’s a good player. But one player who I want in the Indian Test squad at all times from the NZ series onwards is Baba Indrajith. Probably the best batsman I’ve seen come out of Tamil Nadu since Subramaniam Badrinath who was robbed of a Test career because Dhoni kept on persisting with Raina and Yuvraj who were average in Test cricket. The same can’t be done to Indrajith

Rahul usually starts well in the IPL and scores next to nothing later on. Hopefully it's different this time. On the other hand, Pant looked like he's gonna get out or get out trying to hit a six. With a long tail and poor middle order, not sure how India can compete against England in their home conditions. This time around they have decent bat until no 9.

I wouldn't panic too much this test though Tsat. The good thing for India is they got to bat first at the Oval. The side batting first there hasn't lost too often in the past 50 years, although it is generally considered a good idea to have a specialist spinner at the Oval, even two, especially if you are fortunate enough to get to bat first. As for Pujara, it is a classic case of selectors not scrutinises the circumstances of a score like hos 91 in the 2nd innings last test. If you fail to see those runs for what they were i.e. completely meaningless and without a shred of influence on that game or the series, then you keep picking the player in question and he keeps letting you down when it matters.

Kohli must be coming back into some sort of forn, Jeff. I doubt the Kohli from the first couple of Tests would have got an edge on that, it was that good a delivery.

He did. And good balls will get you out from time to time. He faced quite a few good deliveries and mostly handled them well. Obviously had a touch of luck in his 20s when dropped by Root. He’s class though, not too many batsmen seem to have the ability to adjust their game for the better during ongoing Tests.

There’s little doubt the core of this Indian top 6 hasn’t developed the technique to bat n NZ and Eng. I think it’s 8 of the last 11 Tests lost. Characterised by numerous collapses against the new ball. At some point, the BCCI needs to simply bite the bullet and either make room in future touring schedules for tour games (even 2 would be helpful) or get more time into India A tours of both countries. I love that this series is 5 Tests, though I wonder whether a 4 Test series with 2 Indian sides each made up of a mix of Test incumbents and peripherals playing 2 tour matches each beforehand would have been a better approach for Indian cricket. On a separate note, I thought Kohli looked much better yesterday, using his feet to shuffle into position and driving more confidently. He still seems to have some way to go to get back to his best, but those runs he made and the time in the middle he had in the 2nd innings at Headingley may prove invaluable in the context of the rest of this series, if indeed India’s chances of taking the series rests on their captain holding the remaining innings together.